What if TL-191 was actually real? What's beyond 1945?

I was thinking would there be some sort of NATO like American led entity in this world and which nations would be members?
Doubtful, at least early on.

While the US is easily among the Great Powers, the devastation of the SGW make it so that, at least in the early decades following the war, the US would be much more inward focused while it rebuilds and deals with the former CSA. It's not too dissimilar to the OTL British post-war experience, except that the US would have far greater resources available to it than the OTL British, thus would bounce back to Great Power status much more readily.

This bounce back would begin in earnest in the 1970s. The 1950s would be a difficult decade for the average American, with the late 50s seeing a vague stabilization start and the 1960s being the decade where that stabilization takes greater hold. Later in the 60s sees a tentative start to a proper economic recovery with the 1970s seeing this economic recovery take proper hold.

In the 1980s you will likely see politics take a more economically and fiscally conservative turn (though of course it's going to be a much less conservative conservativism than the OTL 1980s). It will also see America become much more gung ho in foreign affairs.
 
I personally find the Mormon shenanigans that happened in TL-191 kind of ridiculous since if there was a major disagreement between them and the US government, history has shown they would move again. In OTL they already had colonies in Australia, Mexico, and Canada. That being said, I can see most Mormons after the SGW relocating to either Mexico or Australia voluntarily so they don't have to be forcefully shipped to the Sandwich Islands.
Here is an interesting idea for where the might settle: Western Australia. In here Weststralia is independent from an Austrialia that itself declared independence form Britian due to it going fascist (Weststralia was an actual real thing, look it up. It even had an independence referendum). Then after WW2 the Mormons roll in, and become a major force in Weststralia, possibly even taking it over form the original Westrlaians, turning it into the free theocracy they wanted so much.
  • The Mormons were deported to southern Sonora as a border march between Mexico and the US. Nowadays, the Mormon Republic of New Deseret (in south Sonora) is increasingly Mestizo in adherance with Spanish being the dominant language of church service.
Idea time! This was inspired by @Cire own your TL191 about his take about the Mormons so here's my idea:

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THE SECOND MORMON PIONEERS AND OPERATION ANTIPODE REFUGE

By Oliver E. Smith

Published from the University of Sydney, 1993

Australians heard about the US plan to deport the Mormons into the Sandwich Islands into Congress and we're furious about this but can't do anything until Eric Campbell(1) heard about it and unbelievably the Americans talk about them about the Mormons

This is not coincidental as Eric Campbell was deeply unpopular with the Australians who lost another war against the Central Powers and the fear of a Japanese takeover still imminent.

so when Eric heard about Mormons deportation into the Sandwich Islands, this was his moment to have some credibility to his government but more in that later

The Americans were particularly puzzled about the Australians into the Mormon questions and many of them want to ignore them to just do the operation to deport Mormons.


But there's obvious problems with the deportation as the US is still recovering the war with the Confederacy as well as possible resistance of the Mormons inside of Utah, it would take tremendous amounts of money to deport all of the Mormons into the Sandwich Islands. This is not even mentoring about the south resistance against the US troops in that period and need the funds to stabilize the occupation of the South easier.

The Australians were equally puzzled by The proposal with the Mormons question and as a whole this is none of the business to mess with. Until Eric tell them their actual plans are with the Mormon as they needed the Manpower to battle against the Japanese and also easy to assimilate the Mormons into Aussie culture compared to normally the Asian minority.

This also had US on their side during the Frozen stalemate (2) against the the Japanese by get rid of the Mormons out of US hands to deal with in post war America

But overall Thomas chose to listen to the Campbell and got his vice president, Harry Truman to industrate with the Aussies about the proposed Mormon deportation


The negotiation with the Aussies and America wasn't easy as the Second Great War was still in living memory that haunted the agreement process but they weren't any confrontation with the Aussies and the kiwi in the Pacific as they were mainly fighting the Japanese.

But that's the thing they have one thing in common and the most important thing in common they have: *They want to stop the Japanese influence into the Pacific* and if they going to work together, it's going to be now when the beginning of the Frozen stalemate has started.

Soon the crutches between the Aussies and the Yankees were reduced because of the horizon influence of Japan.

The kiwis who were sat with the Aussies negotiating with the Americans about the Mormons stepped into decoration table to help their Aussie brother.

They too were afraid of the rising superpower of Japan and having the Mormons around to settle in New Zealand will help boost the population level, and secretly want the Mormons to vote for more conservative parties in New Zealand as well as Australia too (3)

Harry Truman negotiate the Australians and soon the Kiwi's too about the Mormons issue and soon finally have an agreement between the three countries.

And after few for the most intense weeks from Truman meetings with the many Australians and kiwi Representatives about the "Mormon moving", they finally struck gold and now with the exact plans of what to finally do with the Aussies/Kiwi's and the Mormons.

Their plan consists of the Aussies and the kiwi ships go to the US Coast of California and Mormons who gathered in the beaches, go to the ships to travel to new Homeland, then go to either "S route" goes to The Sandwich Islands to refuel then go to Australia or "P route"where to go straight into Australia through the Pacific Ocean

The deal will finally set with the Aussies and the kiwis about the Mormons now all that Truman have to do is sign it

He goes to Australia and landed to Brisbane, Queensland to finally sign it into effect as this proposed between the US and Antipode countries;

"Australia and New Zealand will given the Mormons amnesty to live to that country and be free to practice their religion in exchange the the US will only allow a quarter of the Mormons stay to the migrate into the Sandwich Islands"

This resulted into the biggest mass of migration of the Mormons since the great pioneers into Utah as hundred thousands of Mormons move into the Antipode Countries by Australian ships and boats to travel that much people into Oceania.

But it wasn't easy to the Mormon the pioneers are heading to the new home in Australia and New Zealand.

They make hard decisions to leave their communities, homes and even tear apart families to make the journey for the new Homeland into the two countries.


They're often were young people including kids sent off to their parents so they will have better life than living other American occupation.

"Our mothers cried when they find out only send a few of us will stay together and.. they.. decided.. to let us go to Australia... . . And they will stay to go to be deported

Honestly we tried to convince them to come with us to Australia but they won't budge.. we all cry that day ..we all did .. after the ship left America ...we never see our mothers again
"


-Evile Mason interview from the Documentary "44 Pioneer Diasporas" in celebration the 45 anniversary of Mormon Australian arrived

This is account is just one of the amount in many dozens of the many Mormons pioneers who were ship over to Australia and New Zealand during the Operation known as "Antipode Refuge".


Antipode Refuge was the biggest operation Carry out by Australia and their brother country, New Zealand traveling with combine number over 245 ship/ boats to the US coast to meet with the Mormons guarded by US troops.

There were undoubtedly crashed left of Mormons and the US soldiers (they were insulting even fights with the US troops but not enough to have a massive riot)

There were 24 checkpoints to meet with Antipode ships but most of the pioneers were located in the Coast of San Francisco bay, San Diego and Los Angeles also known as "Coast A, B and E" where they meet up with ships let them to the new home.

The situation during the beaches weren't any much better as the Mormons who bordered into ship know the fact that it would never well return to the US ever again, the land that they thought what their Homeland now deporting them to another continent away.


The Mormon who were in the beaches have a somber and bittersweet moments when they finally go on the ship and ride off to their destination with apart of families.

"I was looking upon the many people that we had to shipped through and my God ..there were so many of them ..but the image that I always stay with me in the rest of my life.. was.... . . . A young woman who was weeping as she giving her baby into a stranger's hand then leaving with it..."

-Unknown Australian sailor during shipping in Coast A

After 8 month of dozen of ships and boats shipping off with Mormon pioneers, Operation Antipode Refuge has finally complete that task to helped Mormons transported into Antipode Countries.

Overall out of the 350,000 Mormons in America 1944, there were over 100,000 Mormons still left in the aftermath from Operation Antipode Refuge in US 1945


They were get deported into a Sandwich Islands half of you later and under Military Occupation again but more of a tropical prison.

The Different is with the Sandwich Islands and Utah it isn't full of young people Including most kids but old and middle age people who stayed behind with just a few kids left.

The Mormons who migrated into Australia (200,000) and New Zealand (50,000) were is sent into housing and lands to many pioneers that were deported from their homes, they were manly young people, woman and children but had many of the leaders of the Latter day Saints.

The Most important Mormon of all in Antipode Countries, Israel A. Smith (4) the descendant of Joseph Smith Jr.

Israel a Smith lead his people in Australia when they arrive at the shores of Queensland and Victoria to be good Australian citizens as they want to be in part of the Aussie society and not get oppressed once more.

He even let us schism between the Mormon fath to go descent to the Heber Young controll LDS temple in the Sandwich Islands and lead him carry his own branch of the Mormon faith,

And that is the beginning of the Mormons in Oceania....

—---------------------------------


(1) Eric Campbell is the prime minister of Australia during the Second Great war and an immense of the Mormon negotiation. His time was up at prime Minister and was arrested for crime against humanity by the new Australian government but continue the Mormon plan seeing the value it is


(2) The "Frozen Stalemate" was a term that use between the US Germany and Japan on influence across the world's similar to what the Great Game is to Britain and Russia

(3) the Mormons were very conservative as they don't want their identity be to be erased from American occupation and want to survive their faith using polygamy was the way

(4) Israel a Smith is a different person to put his counterparts in OTL, he's much a traditionalist and a leader from the exiled Mormons community in Oceania.
He want to keep the Mormon identity still alive in exile and keep the religious practice of the Mormons even polygamy

( It convinced Aussie government to freely use polygamy and soon after the Kiwis but it's a very controversial subject in the countries )

------------------
Jesus after doing this post for three days it finally fucking finished and honestly I am proud of this post because it's the best ability I ever got and it was worth it in my opinion

I already post this one but a picture form in Photo of Featherston thread
 
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Overall out of the 350,000 Mormons in America 1944, there were over 100,000 Mormons still left in the aftermath from Operation Antipode Refuge in US 1945
Are you imagining that the Mormons in Australia came as voluntary immigrants, or were they deported under an agreement between the US and Australia? Or maybe a combination of the two circumstances?
 
Are you imagining that the Mormons in Australia came as voluntary immigrants, or were they deported under an agreement between the US and Australia? Or maybe a combination of the two circumstances?
The Mormons who come to the Oceanian countries are voluntary as the US don't want to deal with a large angry Mormons no more.

And there were deportation during the Mormon migration into Oceania but they were little comparison to the many voluntary Mormons pioneers like 90%.

The migration with the Mormons in the Sandwich Islands were just flat out deportation because of the US only had to deal with older generation and very few kids and young people to agitate with
 
Well, not too beat a dead horse, but here is roughly what I think what would happen after 1945.

The Freedom Party resistance movement would have one big final uprising somewhere in the defeated Confederacy, and maybe for a period ranging from a few days to a few weeks, they might even be able to establish a sort of reconstituted Confederate government, with a new self-declared President of the Confederate States of America. However, this new president of the CS wouldn't have been elected by the people he claims to represent, and in the end, the US military brutally crushes the rebellion by publicly executing anyone who it believes to have been a part of the new Confederate government.

By this time most people living in the defeated Confederacy, have come to realize that the US occupation cannot be overthrown, and each time a former Confederate official calls for rebellion, from the safety of their hidden bunker, it is the average citizen of the former Confederacy which suffers because of the rebellion, and not the shadowy figures lurking in redoubts across the land.

Although the attempt to reconstitute the Confederate government fails, it forces US officials to reconsider their approach to occupying the defeated Confederacy. A decision is reached by the Dewey administration that, under no circumstances can the Confederacy be allowed to regain any form of independence, and all other political and military concerns are declared secondary. Thus the decision is made to grant Canadian and Cuban independence, and to return Sonora and Chihuahua to Mexico for the purpose of freeing up troops for the occupation of the Confederacy.

Around this same time California Governor Earl Warren invites the President of Texas, Wright Patman to a semi-official summit in Los Angeles, California. Patman is dazzled by the freeways, swimming pools, and housing tracts of Southern California, and laments about the relatively low standard of living experienced by the people of Texas. A few months later Patman visits the White House, and a deal is struck to bring Texas back into the Union. The deal calls for the State of Houston to be reabsorbed by Texas, and for Texas to be able to keep its own small self-defense force nominally independent of the US military.

At first people notice the Marxist revolution playing out in Russia until it spills over into Alaska, and begins to threaten the newly independent nation of Canada. By the early 1950s the US finds itself having to permanently station troops along the border between Canada and Alaska. Raids across the border are carried out by both sides, and occasional flash point battles are not uncommon. Meanwhile, in Europe, a somewhat liberalized and democratized Germany continues to dominate the Continent through the creation of the European Confederation. Germany and the US (North American Treaty Organization) remain close allies throughout most of the rest of the twentieth century, has both blocks share concerns regarding the rise of Marxist-Trotskyism.

A cheap synthetic replacement for fossil fuels such as gasoline, diesel, and aviation fuel is developed in the mid-1950s, thus causing the price of crude oil to drop through the floor. A downside of this is that few automotive manufactures care about fuel economy or tail pipe emissions. Many western cities will spend the rest of the century cloaked in permanent layers of smog until atmospheric scrubbers come online during the 1990s.

The first manned moon landing occurs in 1966, the first personal computers are introduced in the mid 1970s, but the ability to post on the web is carefully controlled by the Federal Communications Agency.

An intense but short land based war breaks out in Japan home islands during the summer and fall of 1977. A US aircraft carrier is sunk as the US launches as a massive amphibious assault on Honshu. The US suffers heavy casualties, and superbombs are used in warfare for the first time since the 1940s. The war causes the Republicans to lose the White House to the Democrats in 1980. Also, the Japanese War is seen as the begging of the end of Marxist Troskyism, and by 1987, both the Russian and Japanese people have given up on the theory of government.

Towards the end of the century an alliance will begin to develop between Russia and the United States, as Europe and the People's Republic of China move close to one another.
 
Well, not too beat a dead horse, but here is roughly what I think what would happen after 1945.

The Freedom Party resistance movement would have one big final uprising somewhere in the defeated Confederacy, and maybe for a period ranging from a few days to a few weeks, they might even be able to establish a sort of reconstituted Confederate government, with a new self-declared President of the Confederate States of America. However, this new president of the CS wouldn't have been elected by the people he claims to represent, and in the end, the US military brutally crushes the rebellion by publicly executing anyone who it believes to have been a part of the new Confederate government.

By this time most people living in the defeated Confederacy, have come to realize that the US occupation cannot be overthrown, and each time a former Confederate official calls for rebellion, from the safety of their hidden bunker, it is the average citizen of the former Confederacy which suffers because of the rebellion, and not the shadowy figures lurking in redoubts across the land.

Although the attempt to reconstitute the Confederate government fails, it forces US officials to reconsider their approach to occupying the defeated Confederacy. A decision is reached by the Dewey administration that, under no circumstances can the Confederacy be allowed to regain any form of independence, and all other political and military concerns are declared secondary. Thus the decision is made to grant Canadian and Cuban independence, and to return Sonora and Chihuahua to Mexico for the purpose of freeing up troops for the occupation of the Confederacy.

Around this same time California Governor Earl Warren invites the President of Texas, Wright Patman to a semi-official summit in Los Angeles, California. Patman is dazzled by the freeways, swimming pools, and housing tracts of Southern California, and laments about the relatively low standard of living experienced by the people of Texas. A few months later Patman visits the White House, and a deal is struck to bring Texas back into the Union. The deal calls for the State of Houston to be reabsorbed by Texas, and for Texas to be able to keep its own small self-defense force nominally independent of the US military.

At first people notice the Marxist revolution playing out in Russia until it spills over into Alaska, and begins to threaten the newly independent nation of Canada. By the early 1950s the US finds itself having to permanently station troops along the border between Canada and Alaska. Raids across the border are carried out by both sides, and occasional flash point battles are not uncommon. Meanwhile, in Europe, a somewhat liberalized and democratized Germany continues to dominate the Continent through the creation of the European Confederation. Germany and the US (North American Treaty Organization) remain close allies throughout most of the rest of the twentieth century, has both blocks share concerns regarding the rise of Marxist-Trotskyism.

A cheap synthetic replacement for fossil fuels such as gasoline, diesel, and aviation fuel is developed in the mid-1950s, thus causing the price of crude oil to drop through the floor. A downside of this is that few automotive manufactures care about fuel economy or tail pipe emissions. Many western cities will spend the rest of the century cloaked in permanent layers of smog until atmospheric scrubbers come online during the 1990s.

The first manned moon landing occurs in 1966, the first personal computers are introduced in the mid 1970s, but the ability to post on the web is carefully controlled by the Federal Communications Agency.

An intense but short land based war breaks out in Japan home islands during the summer and fall of 1977. A US aircraft carrier is sunk as the US launches as a massive amphibious assault on Honshu. The US suffers heavy casualties, and superbombs are used in warfare for the first time since the 1940s. The war causes the Republicans to lose the White House to the Democrats in 1980. Also, the Japanese War is seen as the begging of the end of Marxist Troskyism, and by 1987, both the Russian and Japanese people have given up on the theory of government.

Towards the end of the century an alliance will begin to develop between Russia and the United States, as Europe and the People's Republic of China move close to one another.
Nice headcanon mate but kinda too ridiculous but nice to read with Cire.

But honestly what do you think of my posts about the Mormons migration from Oceania?

Was it good, is it bad, do I need to approve some things?
 
Nice headcanon mate but kinda too ridiculous but nice to read with Cire.

But honestly what do you think of my posts about the Mormons migration from Oceania?

Was it good, is it bad, do I need to approve some things?
I think that your posts regarding the Mormon migration into Oceania are plausible, entertaining, and they supply fertile breeding ground for future stories.
 
What I am thinking about are Germany and Austria Hungary.

Most ideas I have seen of Germany is that is and remains an authoritarian nation. In the book series they always talk about "the Kaiser", like Wilhelm and Friedrich Willhelm are the ones dictating policy. Germany in the interwar years probably liberalized, which could seen as a reason why its military was weaker initially. While not a parliamentary monarchy, the Reichstag got have gotten more rights and limited the militaries funding, esspecially in the 1920s. I really dislike the idea of a sort of "Military/monarchist Junta" ruling Germany, since the German public was very politically active and the Reichstag on verge of wrestling power away from the Kaiser and nobility before the war.

There could a sort of "fallback" in Germany, with the authoritarian forces getting stronger again as Germany is forces into the defensive, but I doubt that Germany would be that "Monarchist Empire" that goes into a Cold War with the USA. Most likely it would follow the path towards a full parliamentary monarchy once Willhelm IV dies (early 50s). Biggest sign of this change would probably be a first social democratic chancellor. My idea for the interwar years would be that the SPD did join governments, but to appease the hardline conservatives and the military they usually had either a Zentrum or Liberal Chancellor.
(In my own idea there is also an attempt by Old Guard officers to launch a coup after Willhelm IVs death, however by then they were marginalized by a new, more technocratic class of officers, most of whom arent really connected to the old Prussian way, who either actually stand on the side of democracy or see a coupa gainst it as weakining the nation)

There is also mention of Germany having a sort of "brush war" and hard hand rule in the Kongo. This could also sour the publics view on colonies post Second Great War. Twice they lost those colonies that cost so much and never did they do them any good, so esspecially the later Social democratic Chancellor will certainly not want to continue the policy. (Safe for maybe Namibia, where they probably build a decently large German settler population). Germany is strong, but esspecially the Second Great War will have it reevalute its role. Germany is Great Power, but does not have the Global Reach to go beyond Europe and its immediate surrounding areas.

Also two more things, Britain and France are finished, esspecially France. France most likely wasted the flower of its youth to reach the Rhine and than paris got nuked. France population is gutted and its entire political and economical system collapsing. Germany will most likely completely disintegrate its Empire and maybe even break out Corsica and maybe even Britanny to permanently cripple France.

The UK on the other hand is spent and has suffered three nuclear attack to its core. If they try to hold their colonies they will fail, essspecially if Japan supprot Indian independence, they also threw everything they had into this war and now have nothing left. And if they tuck tail and run than they are reduced to a regional power at best, a regional power with few economical connection and fewer allies.

One of the ideas I have for what happens after 1944 actually includes some rewritting of the end, with a Mosleyist last stand in Ireland. Where the extreme parts of the army and Moesleys followers entrench themself in one last struggle. Which ends with a combined American-German liberation of the Island, after Germany nukes the half of the Royal Navy that followed Mosley (permanently neutering the Royal Navy and making it impossible for Britain to keep its Empire). Sort of a "Elbe Day" moment where the two allies finally meet. With stuff like Black US troops getting a chance to fight, Armstrong Grimes beeing made an officer against his will, now Captain Pound beeing the first to meet German Panzer (and commenting about how the Mark 3s are far superior to German Panzer)and Sam Carsten chance meeting of a German doctor who identifies the mole on his hand as cancer and timely removes it, preventing his early death (Sam is more or less my favourite character in the series). Stuff like that. Hell, by the end of it, depending on how fucked the UK is, they could even force them to give Scotland independence, which would forever end any dream of the UK beeing a Great Power again.


But thats just a few ideas
 
I doubt that Germany would be that "Monarchist Empire" that goes into a Cold War with the USA. Most likely it would follow the path towards a full parliamentary monarchy once Willhelm IV dies (early 50s). Biggest sign of this change would probably be a first social democratic chancellor. My idea for the interwar years would be that the SPD did join governments, but to appease the hardline conservatives and the military they usually had either a Zentrum or Liberal Chancellor.
I agree. By the end of the Second Great War all of the great empires of the previous century have outlived their usefulness, and their governments would have to be reformed, or face internal revolution.
 
Britain's fall and America/Germany's rise, 1946-1960 And Beyond (excerpt)


As a newly united America began to rebound from the "Time of trials" of the war years, and focused mainly on Mormon immigration and the "Hellbomb campaign" of the Pacific, Germany solidified its status as the de facto leader of a post-Imperial Europe, as Britain fell into isolationism and creating a mythology of a lost empire. India found itself following Europe's lead and allying with socialist China as the Japanese were forced to retreat post-war.
The upside for the US, aside from economic advantage, was the development of a robust missile defense program and subsequent space probe development in partnership with German engineers...the Vulcan Program, which began during the prosperity of the 1960s and 70s, was instrumental in choosing landing sites for the first American/German landings on the Moon and then the historic Mars mission in the 1990s.
-Stephen Baxter, Canadian (British-born) author, 2012
 
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I think Northern occupation of the South follows the general pattern that the occupation of Germany did post WW2. Fetherstone's brand of virulent racism will have been discredited, similar to the end of Nazism in Germany, so the chances of terrorist attacks against the Northern-appointed black governors and mayors may be lessened.
 
I think that your posts regarding the Mormon migration into Oceania are plausible, entertaining, and they supply fertile breeding ground for future stories.
Thank you and also have ideas to continue with the Mormons in Oceania but on the Photos thread
 
I think Northern occupation of the South follows the general pattern that the occupation of Germany did post WW2. Fetherstone's brand of virulent racism will have been discredited, similar to the end of Nazism in Germany, so the chances of terrorist attacks against the Northern-appointed black governors and mayors may be lessened.
Well the whole Freedom ideology will be discarded and destroyed but terrorism in the South will likely be continued even worse than Reconstruction mate.

Remember that the South had a different identity than with the US for nearly 85 years long and how much is going to be resistance for keeping that identity separate.

Even if they have education to brainwash the young youth of the South there will still a Identity separate from the Yanks up north
 
even if they successfully brainwash the young CSA population they wouldn't be accepted as Americans but only as "Confederate thugs".
And that's the point. The point of the whole occupation and Brainwashing would most likely not to being the Confederacy into the Union, but to destroy the Confedrate and southern identity and cripple the trators as much as possible. There is simply too much bad blood for any goodwill
 
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