What if there was no winter war.

Given how cramped they were, I don't know if I'd accept that on face value. It might have been that because it could only take smaller tankers, they were able to get out through the larger hatches? Of course too reading the interviews and writings of survivors has the bias of getting the perspective of those that managed to survive, so it would make it seems that they could get out in a pinch, because that is what the survivors did, as you won't hear from those less lucky.

Usually one crew member didn't make it out due to being furthest from the hatch (The radio operator, I think). But the rest could usually escape unless the vehicle received an immediate critical hit which killed the crew of caused it to explode. Memoirs of German soldiers also describe damaged or burning vehicles being evacuated. Soviet tankists were actually given SMGs fir protection once they exited the vehicle.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Apparently, those that were repaired are not in the 82%.
They could have been; destroyed doesn't mean obliterated. If they were repaired then they could have been knocked out multiple times and gone through several crews...hypothetically. Also I wonder if the repaired T-34s were ever counted as new production, as the Germans did with their repaired aircraft.

So, destroyed T-34`s were being constantly replaced by newly-built T-34`s. I guess that makes the "Zerg rush" stereotype of the Red Army actually based on real life. :eek:
Very much so; of course that really became apparent by 1943 when the Soviets could attack everywhere at once due to having the machines and manpower to do so, while the Germans could only attack on one from in 1942 after their initial 'whole front' advance 1941; that was the strategy the Soviets were able to start and keep up from 1943 on thanks to their larger manpower and production. The whole 'bigger battalions' idea was very much a major component of Soviet success; by 1943/44 the Soviets though were improving the quality of their manpower, because unlike the Germans who had peaked with their best people in 1941, the Soviets still had untapped reserves that were being liberated and they could pass on all the accumulated experience from survivors of 1941-43 to the young men coming online. Plus with the great power imbalance between the Axis and Allies at the time, more Soviets were surviving proportionally to pass on that experience than before. So 'Zerg Rush' is somewhat insulting to the Red Armed Forces of 1944 on, it was the technique that let the mature, experienced force of 1944/45 form.
 

Deleted member 1487

Usually one crew member didn't make it out due to being furthest from the hatch (The radio operator, I think). But the rest could usually escape unless the vehicle received an immediate critical hit which killed the crew of caused it to explode. Memoirs of German soldiers also describe damaged or burning vehicles being evacuated. Soviet tankists were actually given SMGs fir protection once they exited the vehicle.

T-34_cutaway.jpg

I could see how some guys could get out if they weren't killed in the initial hit, but the big worry is the ammo getting hit, because that is really what caused brew ups.

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/426694/787761.jpg
 
They could have been; destroyed doesn't mean obliterated. If they were repaired then they could have been knocked out multiple times and gone through several crews...hypothetically. Also I wonder if the repaired T-34s were ever counted as new production, as the Germans did with their repaired aircraft.


Very much so; of course that really became apparent by 1943 when the Soviets could attack everywhere at once due to having the machines and manpower to do so, while the Germans could only attack on one from in 1942 after their initial 'whole front' advance 1941; that was the strategy the Soviets were able to start and keep up from 1943 on thanks to their larger manpower and production. The whole 'bigger battalions' idea was very much a major component of Soviet success; by 1943/44 the Soviets though were improving the quality of their manpower, because unlike the Germans who had peaked with their best people in 1941, the Soviets still had untapped reserves that were being liberated and they could pass on all the accumulated experience from survivors of 1941-43 to the young men coming online. Plus with the great power imbalance between the Axis and Allies at the time, more Soviets were surviving proportionally to pass on that experience than before. So 'Zerg Rush' is somewhat insulting to the Red Armed Forces of 1944 on, it was the technique that let the mature, experienced force of 1944/45 form.

Though I was incorrect about the extent of Soviet repairs; compared to Germans their repair systems were fairly slow and inefficient, and thus it was often easier to give a crew a new tank rather than wait. However, looking at the OOB of 6th Tank Army in March 1945 several hundred vehicles were under repair, so the Soviet's definitely did carry out large scale repairs by the end of the war.
 
T-34_cutaway.jpg

I could see how some guys could get out if they weren't killed in the initial hit, but the big worry is the ammo getting hit, because that is really what caused brew ups.
http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/426694/787761.jpg

Indeed, it depends on the kind of hit. No one could escape an ammunition hit or a fire that spread very quickly. But most other types of hits, even a slower fire, would give most of the crew time to get out.

Interestingly Soviet crews were much more likely to abandon their vehicles than Germans, even for non-critical or mobility hits. Partially because the T-34 could be shaken up very easily by a hit, making it next to impossible to drive. Since crews were guaranteed a new tank, they'd quickly abandon their vehicles rather than risk being killed by the next hit while being essentially sitting ducks.
 
This is the time that the King of the Khazars converts to Judaism IOTL. IOTL, the Kuzari King was beset by pressure to choose between Christianity and Islam . Not so TTL, but the Khazars are between the Christian Byzantines and the equivalent Zoroastrian power to the East. Will the Khazar king decide to convert to Judaism TTL and if the Khazars do go Jewish, what will the impact on Anatolia be if they stay there?

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

They could have been; destroyed doesn't mean obliterated. If they were repaired then they could have been knocked out multiple times and gone through several crews...hypothetically. Also I wonder if the repaired T-34s were ever counted as new production, as the Germans did with their repaired aircraft.

"Irrecoverably lost" doesn`t really sound like "repaireable", no? ;)


Interesting. And a bit of a contrast to popular wisdom on AH.com. Just recently I have read accounts of the Siege of Demyansk where soviet infrantry used human wave tactis repeatedly despite the faliure of all previous attacks, and several tank attacks aimed at AGN were basically dozens of Soviet tanks attacking frontally into prepared German positions. From other accounts, it would appear the Soviets did this -throughout the whole Eastern Front-.

But according to AH.com, situations like these never happened. :confused:
 
Interesting. And a bit of a contrast to popular wisdom on AH.com. Just recently I have read accounts of the Siege of Demyansk where soviet infrantry used human wave tactis repeatedly despite the faliure of all previous attacks, and several tank attacks aimed at AGN were basically dozens of Soviet tanks attacking frontally into prepared German positions. From other accounts, it would appear the Soviets did this -throughout the whole Eastern Front-.

But according to AH.com, situations like these never happened. :confused:

In theory at least Soviet attacks were supposed to be supported by artillery, and armor in a concentration of force so that German positions would crumble under sheer wieght of numbers and firepower. From 1941-42 however the Soviets lacked the organization, ability, firepower, ammunition, and equipment to carry out successful attacks of this nature. More often than not the artillery barrage would fail to destroy German defenses, fail to carry out proper counterbattery fire, and fail to support the offensive. The supporting armor would quickly become uncoordinated, blundering into German AT defenses, and rarely carried out it's mission propery. Further, Soviet commanders couldn't handle their formations, quickly losing track of the battle and ordering unimaginative assaults with poor artilery support and intelligence, often contrary to orders from the Front and STAVKA.

From the German perspective all that was observed was a blind human wave attack. Soviet records however show that disastrous attacks of the kind you describe were more the result of the Soviet's failure to carry out complex offensives operationaly or tactically.

It's not that the attacks didn't happen, it's that the reality was far more complex than the stereotype of hordes of poorly armed Soviet infantrymen charging to their death in the thousands, with plans being no more than that.

If you fast forward to 1943 you see a different story. At Siniavino in January 1943, for instance, the Red Army's assault plan was incredibly complex when compared to offensives carried out even a few months ago. The coordination of infantry, long range artillery, direct fire artillery, logistics, sappers, armor, etc was orders of magnitude greater. Firepower, organization, and concentration all improved. The results were noticeable. Despite attacking into the teeth of the strongest German defenses in the East, the Red Army smashed them and achieved all of it's objectives save for capturing the Siniavino Heights at the very end of the offensive.

The Red Army from late 1942 and beyond had a complexity and quality that went beyond sheer numbers.

"Irrecoverably lost" doesn`t really sound like "repaireable", no? ;)

There are many examples of Soviet formations having several hundred tanks under repair at once.
 
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