What if Theodore Rosevelt didn't die in 1919?

Could Theodore Rooseverlt have won the White House again in 1920? What would he have done differently than Harding?
 
TR hardly would have run anymore on 1920. Him had already bad health and death of his son Quentin Roosevelt on WW1 didn't help situation. If Roosevelt survives to January 1, 1920, he hardly lives very long anymore. So not changes there.

And even if Roosevelt would has been healthier on 1920, I am unsure that he still would has run on 1920.
 
Y
TR hardly would have run anymore on 1920. Him had already bad health and death of his son Quentin Roosevelt on WW1 didn't help situation. If Roosevelt survives to January 1, 1920, he hardly lives very long anymore. So not changes there.

And even if Roosevelt would has been healthier on 1920, I am unsure that he still would has run on 1920.

You're absolutely right Lalli re TR's health & the likelihood he would have died in 1920 IOTL. Assuming
he DOES live on though, my reading of TR is that he was very ambitous(among other things)& that
even in 1919 he was still burning to recapture the White House. Furthermore, in 1919 IOTL Republ-
icans of all stripes were lining up behind him. Boies Penrose, the boss of the Pennsylvania G.O.P. &
as regular a Republican as you could get, when asked as early as 1918 IOTL who the Republicans
would nominate in 1920 replied Roosevelt was the only candidate. "...I don't like him" he added. "I
once despised him. But that doesn't alter the fact that Theodore Roosevelt is now the one & only
possible Republican candidate in 1920." (Quoted in Ralph G. Martin, BALLOTS AND BANDWAGONS,
1964, 3rd section).

But it was not to be as TR died instead.
 

CalBear

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If his health is such that he doesn't die a few months later?

He's elected President of the United States in November of 1920. Probably in 1924 as well, health permitting.

Not sure how you get his health issues resolved without actual divine intervention.
 
i've read that Teddy practically lost the will to live after he heard that Quentin died in the trenches. maybe Quentin living longer could contribute?

in any case, i imagine anything Roosevelt does would amount to political endorsements and the conservation movement
 
This might help but how much it would help actually?
A lot, apparently, from what I've read in Brands' and Morris' biographies. And perhaps a more physically robust TR wouldn't have reacted as strongly as he did to Quentin's death (perhaps deep grief that only a father can feel for a son, but mitigated some by vowing to return to the presidency to do something that would ensure Quentin did not die in vain).

Now if somehow in addition Quentin is wounded but survives, you'd have a TR more than likely to survive to 1920 and in about as good shape as you could have a man of 60 in those days. If that's the case, he's essentially a shoo-in for the presidency, and the 1920s will be quite different. Forget Teapot Dome; won't happen (Warren Harding might have been TR's running mate--at one time it was discussed--but he'd have zero clout, and the Ohio Gang would be on the outside looking in). I wouldn't be surprised either if Prohibition might have come to an earlier end based on the premise that it was spottily enforced, a waste of tax dollars, and forgoing a huge revenue stream. Also, I have to wonder if someone other than Mellon (say, Charles Dawes) as SecTreas might have been alarmed at the insanity on Wall Street and moved to rein in buying on margin, thus dampening or avoiding the crash in 1929?
 
A lot, apparently, from what I've read in Brands' and Morris' biographies. And perhaps a more physically robust TR wouldn't have reacted as strongly as he did to Quentin's death (perhaps deep grief that only a father can feel for a son, but mitigated some by vowing to return to the presidency to do something that would ensure Quentin did not die in vain).

Now if somehow in addition Quentin is wounded but survives, you'd have a TR more than likely to survive to 1920 and in about as good shape as you could have a man of 60 in those days. If that's the case, he's essentially a shoo-in for the presidency, and the 1920s will be quite different. Forget Teapot Dome; won't happen (Warren Harding might have been TR's running mate--at one time it was discussed--but he'd have zero clout, and the Ohio Gang would be on the outside looking in). I wouldn't be surprised either if Prohibition might have come to an earlier end based on the premise that it was spottily enforced, a waste of tax dollars, and forgoing a huge revenue stream. Also, I have to wonder if someone other than Mellon (say, Charles Dawes) as SecTreas might have been alarmed at the insanity on Wall Street and moved to rein in buying on margin, thus dampening or avoiding the crash in 1929?

Good points 1940- & though I'm uncertain
if a TR presidency in the 1920's could have
accomplished all you list out(remember that
IOTL TR often found it hard sledding vs. the
G.O.P. old guard many of whom were still
around in the 1920's)hey, I sure as hell can't
see him doing any worse than Harding &
Coolidge did IOTL(I do strongly doubt though
TR could have won a 3rd term in 1924; by
then I think the country would have felt
they'd had enough of him)
 
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Good points 1940- & though I'm uncertain
if a TR presidency in the 1920's could have
accomplished all you list out(remember that
IOTL TR often found it hard sledding vs. the
G.O.P. old guard many of whom were still
around in the 1920's)hey, I sure as hell can't
see him doing any worse than Harding &
Coolidge did IOTL(I do strongly doubt though
TR could have won a 3rd term in 1924; by
then I think the country would have felt
they'd had enough of him)
I see your point but will counter that by the 1920s the Old Guard that hindered his progress in the first decade of the 20th century was on the way out if not out entirely (Boies Penrose died in December 1921, for example), while a lot of the old progressives (Borah, Johnson) were well established in the Senate. IOTL, something of a power vacuum in the GOP allowed the bosses to put Harding over the top; no such vacuum would exist here. Also never underestimate TR's popularity: he could galvanize the public in a way few others could. With a strong cabinet including such men as Hughes (I think they'd be professional enough to put aside their differences for the common good) at State, Dawes at Treasury, Lowden at Justice, Hoover at Commerce, and a VP like William Sproul or Irvine Lenroot, you'd have a powerhouse administration that could get a lot done. (It's not impossible that TR could have co-opted his cousin Franklin into his administration, turning him into a '20s equivalent of James Schlesinger, a man who could serve both parties.)

One thing, though: I wouldn't look for a naval treaty much like that IOTL. I don't think TR would tolerate Japan getting anywhere within shouting distance of the US by limiting American naval arms.

Don't look for the KKK to be nearly the force it was IOTL: my sense is that TR would have excoriated it thoroughly, while reversing Wilson's racial policies and then some. I could see TR reading any Klansmen out of the GOP summarily, telling them the party doesn't want or need their kind. Sure, it means the south is even more solid, but to little practical effect there. On the flip side, perhaps the black vote becomes more solidly GOP to the point of seeing a handful of black representatives in the '20s. Long story short, a TR redux would probably advance race relations noticeably.

By 1924, TR would probably opt for one more time around, although he's getting older and tired (he'd be 66 by election day). I could see him working to groom a couple of possible successors--and no, I don't mean Hoover. Can't see him and TR getting along well enough such that he'd be seen as a possible successor. I'd think more in terms of Dawes, Lowden, or possibly Lenroot. And in this timeline, 1928 isn't the poisoned chalice it was IOTL, since measures taken during these alt-roaring '20s would yield nothing worse than a mild-to-moderate recession in 1929, given the curtailment of buying on minimal margin. You'd probably not have Prohibition as an issue as it was IOTL 1928, since likely for reasons cited above, repeal would have been accomplished by then.
 
I see your point but will counter that by the 1920s the Old Guard that hindered his progress in the first decade of the 20th century was on the way out if not out entirely (Boies Penrose died in December 1921, for example), while a lot of the old progressives (Borah, Johnson) were well established in the Senate. IOTL, something of a power vacuum in the GOP allowed the bosses to put Harding over the top; no such vacuum would exist here. Also never underestimate TR's popularity: he could galvanize the public in a way few others could. With a strong cabinet including such men as Hughes (I think they'd be professional enough to put aside their differences for the common good) at State, Dawes at Treasury, Lowden at Justice, Hoover at Commerce, and a VP like William Sproul or Irvine Lenroot, you'd have a powerhouse administration that could get a lot done. (It's not impossible that TR could have co-opted his cousin Franklin into his administration, turning him into a '20s equivalent of James Schlesinger, a man who could serve both parties.)

One thing, though: I wouldn't look for a naval treaty much like that IOTL. I don't think TR would tolerate Japan getting anywhere within shouting distance of the US by limiting American naval arms.

Don't look for the KKK to be nearly the force it was IOTL: my sense is that TR would have excoriated it thoroughly, while reversing Wilson's racial policies and then some. I could see TR reading any Klansmen out of the GOP summarily, telling them the party doesn't want or need their kind. Sure, it means the south is even more solid, but to little practical effect there. On the flip side, perhaps the black vote becomes more solidly GOP to the point of seeing a handful of black representatives in the '20s. Long story short, a TR redux would probably advance race relations noticeably.

By 1924, TR would probably opt for one more time around, although he's getting older and tired (he'd be 66 by election day). I could see him working to groom a couple of possible successors--and no, I don't mean Hoover. Can't see him and TR getting along well enough such that he'd be seen as a possible successor. I'd think more in terms of Dawes, Lowden, or possibly Lenroot. And in this timeline, 1928 isn't the poisoned chalice it was IOTL, since measures taken during these alt-roaring '20s would yield nothing worse than a mild-to-moderate recession in 1929, given the curtailment of buying on minimal margin. You'd probably not have Prohibition as an issue as it was IOTL 1928, since likely for reasons cited above, repeal would have been accomplished by then.

True 1940 that by 1921 the old-line con-
servatives were on the way out but they
had plenty of replacements(like Reed Smoot)
That having been said, I do agree with you
100- no, 500%- that it's a shame we never
got a chance to see what TR could have done in the 20's(is it possible that Quentin's
death changed the course of history?)(Oh
yes 1940- it is FASCINATING to speculate
on how FDR would have turned out if his
cousin TR- whom both he & Eleanor greatly
liked & admired- had lived longer)
 
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trajen777

Banned
Yep he would have won in 1920 hands down. For his "hearty life" you need to make two tweaks on the thread of history.

1. I think you need to take him out of the river of doubt, the awful conditions and his weakened state left him open to massive infections that he never recovered from : (so have him go back to ND as a cattle rancher again)

he survey expedition soon becomes low on food. The river demands carbs as they have to negotiate brutal rocky rapids that require their canoes and their supplies be hand lowered down to a calmer section of the river. When they needed more food for energy is when they had the least to eat. Teddy cuts his leg trying to help with the canoes and it happens to be the leg that was crushed in a traffic accident more than a decade before. I would assume that blood flow was not the best through that leg which makes it harder for the body to fight infection. On top of the infection that quickly starts oozing from his leg is the assassin’s bullet still in his chest. It is not completely healed and continues to pull down his immune system. He is perfectly positioned to die. He offered to pull the trigger, Hemingway style.

2. If you want to really make him survive then have Kermit join the navy (follow in dads footprints ) here he is safe vs fighter combat :

As President Roosevelt's son he had rather a difficult task to fit himself in with the democratic style of living which is necessary in the intimate life of an aviation camp. Every one who met him for the first time expected him to have the airs and superciliousness of a spoiled boy. This notion was quickly lost after the first glimpse one had of Quentin. Gay, hearty and absolutely square in everything he said or did, Quentin Roosevelt was one of the most popular fellows in the group. We loved him purely for his own natural self.

"He was reckless to such a degree that his commanding officers had to caution him repeatedly about the senselessness of his lack of caution. His bravery was so notorious that we all knew he would either achieve some great spectacular success or be killed in the attempt. Even the pilots in his own flight would beg him to conserve himself and wait for a fair opportunity for a victory. But Quentin would merely laugh away all serious advice."[2]


If you take the health and the moral decline out of his life - i would see him being in for 1920 and 1924. From here you might butterfly many things (better situation for Germany that stops nazi -- the depression -- for sure the Japanese naval treaty)
 

trajen777

Banned
THAT is the $100 question. Maybe we need
a whole new thread here...

I think if TR wins in 20 and 24 it would be difficult for FDR to win.
1. Lots of TR and people in the USA would have not liked a dynasty. That would be against him.
2. No crisis to make the man

I would love a TL on this
 

Thomas1195

Banned
I don't know how his tariff and Inter-allied debt policies would look like ITTL? Before the war, IOTL, he was also pro-tariff. If these policies are the same as IOTL, a crisis in Europe would be unavoidable (even if the crisis in US is mild), as the French would withdraw money from Austrian banks like IOTL causing German banking collapse. Given his charisma and oratory skills, Hitler might still gain power.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
No or mild crisis means that Keynes would never enjoy his OTL status in economics, even though he would be Britain's leading economist.
 
Have him not go on that Amazon expedition? ("His health never fully recovered after the trip." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt–Rondon_Scientific_Expedition)

Another thing that would improve TR's health would be him not getting shot while campaigning during the 1912 election. The bullet was never removed because TR's doctors thought it would be too dangerous for his health if they tried to remove it. The lingering bullet wound may have inhibited his recovery from his infection in South America.

Then again, some of TR's activities over the years inflicted physical abuse on his body, which probably didn't benefit his long-term health. From the New York Times article announcing his death:
At his death Colonel Roosevelt carried in his body the bullet which was fired by Schrank, at Milwaukee during the Presidential campaign of 1912, which nearly resulted in Colonel Roosevelt's death, because he went on and delivered his speech immediately after the attack.

This and other shocks to his constitution, it was said, might have contributed to the condition which finally brought about his end. Colonel Roosevelt survived innumerable accidents and dangers to his life, which might have left some mark on his constitution. When he first entered the White House, his Secretary of State, John Hay, concluded a letter of praise for Colonel Roosevelt by saying: "He will not live long."

He referred to a series of accidents to the President, each one of which was not far from fatal. Of all the accidents which Colonel Roosevelt went through, that which left the worst effects happened in South America. He tore his leg badly when he was thrown from a boat while descending the River of Doubt and the wound became badly infected. While ill from this he suffered an attack of fever. His health was never sound for any long period since his return from South America early in 1914.

This wound in his leg was directly responsible for the complication of diseases which sent him to the hospital in February of last year, where for a time his life was despaired of. He suffered from a fistula and from an abscess in the ear, which stopped just before it reached the mastoid process.

Even after this illness his energy would not allow him to lead a cautious life. Shortly after his recovery he undertook a trip in the West for the National Security League and made a number of speeches. It was during this tour that he had his historic reconciliation with ex-President Taft at the Hotel Blackstone in Chicago.

In June, while he was in the Middle West, he had a severe attack of erysipelas, but refused to go to a hospital. In spite of intense suffering, he made speeches at Omaha, Indianapolis, and St. Louis. Taking his physician with him he made a 120-mile automobile trip to keep speaking engagements and returned to Indianapolis leaving his physician a "wreck," while he was fresh and vigorous physically though in a good deal of pain. He came home by train and spent a part of his first day chopping wood.

Besides carrying a bullet in his body, Colonel Roosevelt was partially blind and partially deaf. The sight of his left eye was destroyed while he was in the White House in a boxing match. The hearing of one ear was destroyed by the abscess in his ear last February. He had suffered from broken ribs on numerous occasions, mostly in falls from horses, and a strained ligament on a rib caused him a severe attach of pleurisy in 1916. After that attack he was ordered by his physicians to give up violent exercise, but this advice he would not follow.
 
I think if TR wins in 20 and 24 it would be difficult for FDR to win.
1. Lots of TR and people in the USA would have not liked a dynasty. That would be against him.
2. No crisis to make the man

I would love a TL on this
The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again...so, it's a good thing Teddie died when he did!
 

trajen777

Banned
The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again...so, it's a good thing Teddie died when he did!

FDR was a great president however he had a challenge (ie : as Napoleon said "without the revolution i am nothing"). FDR was a great president because of the depression. TR i always felt was one of he few leaders that was great with out the great challenge (National Parks - breaking up the Trusts - Panama Canal etc etc) who still became a great president. You think Washington (not becoming king / Winning the war), Lincoln (Civil war), Reagan (Russian collapse),
 
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