What if the Washington Naval Treaty Failed

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McPherson

Banned
Yes, no, more than two and no.

Let us break that down.

Long version of my view,

I think all four G3s are built, the cost over OTL is tiny and virtually irrelevant to total budget.

Budget is not the limiter. 300 meter docks is. These hulls are in the neighborhood of 55,000 tonnes. I think GB has exactly 2 weighs that can do those ships but will have to be rebuilt to accommodate or else new drydocks. EXPENSIVE $ to upgrade.

Old ships end up in semi-reserve unlike OTL after WNT more like pre WWI, this is very cheap just look at the fleets pre WWI and post WWII hulls in water will last 10+ years will minimal work and still be effective 2nd rate units, ie 13.5" ships, 15 will be the main force, 16" the fast BC force (with H,R&R).

In RN parlance these were 1/2 manned and called "guard ships". More expensive than USN "mothball" method. $

Then From late 20s to early 30s (say 25-35) GB will build something assuming no treaty or unofficial deals. I would assume she will build more G3 like classes ships as going 18" first (and IJN will have stopped due to cash and USN is keeping 16"/50s) would be unnecessarily destabilising. Say 4 LD in 26 for completion in 30, this matches the Colorado's and SD class of USN so then what happens? do they stop due to crash or make 4 or 2 and then 4 or 2 in 29-33 and 32-35?
I don't know if the RN did barrel life tests like the USN did, but past a certain bore size, (40.5 cm) the barrel inner liner wears out in as few as 300 war-shots. If you need to keep your gunnery up and your SHW 40.6cm shells are breaking steel RHA 2/3 of a meter thick, and you are getting 1000 war-shots per barrel out of a Colorado, why in Murphy's name are you building a Yamato or an N3? I would not be too thrilled with the G-3 either.

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Aim for the forward superstructure, boys! Watch her explode!
if they have built more ship in 22-35 then they will not order two at a time to replace QE as they can build four or more and will at least for the first class due to the rush. With not WNT they would be G3 sized monsters 16"/45-50,000t. This makes it much harder for others to match or even cheat as they cant go much larger B&T, 4xL, Y&M(OK but not as much from 14"/35,000t)

Dead meat to a 1935 North Carolina. Designed either as a 35.5 cm or 40.6 cm. Pick your poison.
Nobody will want to reuse 15" mounts till far to late and why when you can still sail the Rs/QEs/R&R as well as convoy escorts and bombardment ships (like WWI pre dreads).

HMS Vanguard was a very useful paperweight and future source of razor blades. IOW too late to the party. ITTL built in 1935, very useful as a one-off.
RN fleet 1939 something like,
Main force 4x G3, 4x G3b, 4x Lion with 4 Lion B building
Reserve force Hood, R&R, 5xQE, 5xR all unmodified and getting very worn out

Fairly close provided the Crown exchequer finances 2 more 300 meter docks.
USN
6 SDs 4 Colorado 2 NC (Montana like 16" BB) with 4 more building and 4 Lex (2 as CVs)
The standards in reserve

I presume a BB Holiday, then an 8-8 panic and a "economic recovery" shipbuilding program. I hate the SDs with a passion.

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Say goodnight, Gracie. (Credit chap named T'zohl) 15 m/s tac speed with guaranteed 40.5 cm KYD in 5 ladders or less.

IJN
N&M, K&T, 4x Amagi, Kii (Owari destroyed by quke) and 2 new 30s 16" ships and 2 building
14" in reserve

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Generally agree. As usual the US is the hard one to predict. You could probably roll dice to decide the mix of SDs, Lexingtons, and Lexington CVs.

I can answer that one. Lexingtons (all 6 become flattops) SD design was a WW I rush disaster. Postwar need a new one, and it will be the 1927 pattern that will eventually become the 1935-37 North Carolinas. Thought (^^^) I'd go Nelson on you and make your RN 1930 nightmare a reality.

Something I just considered but rarely gets brought up in these. Part of the cost savings of the G3s was that 2 replace 5 of the 13.5" battleships. Does this equation still play out in the 30s with the second and third generation? Do 4 "Lions" replace 5 Rs or are the more capable ships expected to replace a couple of QEs as well? Batches of 4 or 5 match what was built historically, but there we are talking 35K ships replacing 30K ships in a lead up to a war.
One problem is too few hulls to cover too many oceans. North Atlantic, Mediterranean and Indian Oceans. So... 9 hulls won't cover 22.

Yamato shows up.

London and DC go "huh", and use their financial muscle to built two more ships. A Yamoto is a rounding error when building by the squadron.

Instead of 6 improved SDs expect 10.

HMS Argus and Eagle will get replaced around 1930 with new build trade protection carriers. Think a 14 - 17,000 ton Hermes with a much smaller island and a speed of 25 - 30 knots. The RN may also experiment with a carrier/oiler like the USN's Sangamon class CVE's.

No good without a FAA that makes sense. Nothing wrong with the Curiosity class that a full length flight deck, shutters in the hanger sides, and a good GP scout torpedo plane does not solve as a CVL rebuild. Need a good naval fighter, too. Save scarce slips and $ for improved Ark Royals.
 
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No good without a FAA that makes sense. Nothing wrong with the Curiosity class that a full length flight deck, shutters in the hanger sides, and a good GP scout torpedo plane does not solve as a CVL rebuild. Need a good naval fighter, too. Save scarce slips and $ for improved Ark Royals.
The follies would still get converted as otl. There's really no other reason for them not to have been scrapped at the end of the war. The RN never really wanted them as built but they were large fast ships ideal for conversion and Furious had already proved the concept and was slated for full conversion before the Washington conference.
 
No good without a FAA that makes sense. Nothing wrong with the Curiosity class that a full length flight deck, shutters in the hanger sides, and a good GP scout torpedo plane does not solve as a CVL rebuild. Need a good naval fighter, too. Save scarce slips and $ for improved Ark Royals.

Thing is that is something learned through operational experiance - which can only happen...though operational experiance and the building of the Argus, Eagle, Hermes and the Curiosities was all part of that rich fun packed process.

I learned recently that the 'hump' on the 3 ships was to slow landed biplanes! Thus it predates Arrestor cables and was not designed specifically to destroy Seafire propellors.

Add in limiting treaties, democracies answerable to their citizens regarding building gert great warships instead of Hospitals and schools (not for them the writing of MEFO Bills during peacetime), the Depression, and the 10 year rule that was not used correctly by either the US or the UK.

Still I would be happier with 3 Arks and 5 Yorkies all laid down between 34 and 40 ;)
 
Budget is not the limiter. 300 meter docks is. These hulls are in the neighborhood of 55,000 tonnes. I think GB has exactly 2 weighs that can do those ships but will have to be rebuilt to accommodate or else new drydocks. EXPENSIVE $ to upgrade.
They had 5 Docks in the UK (2 Rosyth, 2 Portsmouth, 1 Liverpool) and a floating dock to take ships of this size.
 
IIRC the Treasury had approved RN ship building if numbers were cut to 20, ie 8 BC and 12 BB so you would see all pre-WW1 ships replaced by 4 G3 (early 20's) [all 12" armed ships gone], 4 N3 (mid 20's) [all 13.5" ships replaced], 4 Super-G3 (late 20's) [QE's replaced], 4 Super N3 (early 30's) [R class replaced] 4 Fast N3 (mid 30's) [R&R and Hood replacements].
 

McPherson

Banned
Thing is that is something learned through operational experiance - which can only happen...though operational experiance and the building of the Argus, Eagle, Hermes and the Curiosities was all part of that rich fun packed process.

Let's unpack, since you invoked Lessons Learned and I like Lessons Learned.

I learned recently that the 'hump' on the 3 ships was to slow landed biplanes! Thus it predates Arrestor cables and was not designed specifically to destroy Seafire propellors.

Rolling up an incline? Really? Interesting. AFAIK, neither the USN nor the IJN ever tried it. I would think the bounce hazard of the hump would have been immediately obvious, as well as the danger of induced stall of a round-down, too. Set that aside. Presumably, the lead one off (Argus) at sea was RN tested because of the war and the immediate need was to op-eval and not lessons learned? The Curious class was roughly contemporary with the Lexs and converted during the same years, so it is interesting to see the parallel mistakes.

1. Flight deck layout goofed up. Several refits to get it right.
2. Enclosed hangers.
3. Heat sink. No convection ventilation. (Lexs grow bow thru stern hanger shutters, as do the Curious class. Interesting the IJN does not make this mistake, but design them wrong. Hence Midway blowtorches.
4. Elevators/lifts placed wrong on flight deck and not enough of them.
5. Trice arrangements wrong.
6. Islands on the American ships wrong. (Have to wait for Hermes and Eagle for RN to make that one.)
7. A big bolo, hull forms wrong for roofing a flight deck on. In the Americans' case a permanent 3 degree list to starboard. Hermes and Eagle similar.

Add in limiting treaties, democracies answerable to their citizens regarding building gert great warships instead of Hospitals and schools (not for them the writing of MEFO Bills during peacetime), the Depression, and the 10 year rule that was not used correctly by either the US or the UK.

Yeah, those lessons learned, too. To which I say yerts. But can I add?
a. Being democracies, the WNT was negotiated before The Slump. Strangely, the Japanese government was regarded as a "kind" of fellow democracy by Washington and London at least to the extent that there was a parliamentary process at work and it could be seen to work, although it was a belligerent parliamentary Wilhelmine-like one during the WNT process. The whackos did not really take over in Tokyo until about the same time as the political process in Rome went haywire, and for about the same reasons.

b. Democracies, even Wilhelmine ones, have to make do in peacetime, but a little judicious treaty cheating is not unknown among them. In the USN case, such cheating included working in torpedo protection and refitting gun pits on barbettes for the Standards, installing different superstructure and rebuilding the Lexs after the hanger fire taught the USN that "open" and not closed hangers were the correct solution, and other little things that visiting naval attaches would fail to notice. This was Depression era stuff by the way.

Still I would be happier with 3 Arks and 5 Yorkies all laid down between 34 and 40 ;)

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It should be noted that this was going to be built. The theory behind it, was exactly the same operational reason as the

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HIJMS Tone was built. If the "St Louis" had been built as designed, it would have been a trade protection "cruiser" and so listed under the WNT/LNT definition. Of course it would have been a treaty cheat, if allowed. If allowed I could see a half dozen of these characters joining the fleet in the 1930s. The IJN was a little more subtle.

Would I have been happy with the "St Louis"? If it had led to angle deck Essex class flattops in the emergency program, yup.

They had 5 Docks in the UK (2 Rosyth, 2 Portsmouth, 1 Liverpool) and a floating dock to take ships of this size.

Really? The US had to BUILD three floating drydocks for the Iowas, because the weighs size-wise, (12 x 300 meter available) could not handle the weight of the hulls.
 
Budget is not the limiter. 300 meter docks is. These hulls are in the neighborhood of 55,000 tonnes. I think GB has exactly 2 weighs that can do those ships but will have to be rebuilt to accommodate or else new drydocks. EXPENSIVE $ to upgrade.
"the four G3 battlecruisers were ordered on 24 October 1921, without names, from John Brown, Swan Hunter, William Beardmore and Fairfield." GB had plenty of slips to build large ships and as said above also had large dry docks (mostly limited to home waters so not ideal)........

I would not be too thrilled with the G-3 either.

hms-g-3-1920-line.gif


Aim for the forward superstructure, boys! Watch her explode!
Great apart from the fact that we really know any likely opponent will be fighting the front 6 guns as they (KM/RM) try to run away with only the stern mounted 4x15", 3x15", 5x12.6", 3x11", etc?

G3 can probably catch and fight anything ever built in OTL with a reasonable 40~60% of wining. (ok Iowa could run)

In RN parlance these were 1/2 manned and called "guard ships". More expensive than USN "mothball" method. $
I think plenty of old ships pre WWI have very small crews that would be manned by naval reservists when mobilised, ie for example the pre-dreadnoughts and armoured/protected cruisers in third fleet.
I don't know if the RN did barrel life tests like the USN did, but past a certain bore size, (40.5 cm) the barrel inner liner wears out in as few as 300 war-shots. If you need to keep your gunnery up and your SHW 40.6cm shells are breaking steel RHA 2/3 of a meter thick, and you are getting 1000 war-shots per barrel out of a Colorado, why in Murphy's name are you building a Yamato or an N3?
Bigger shells are a really advantage when they hit things, there is a reason that the size of guns kept getting bigger from 1905 to 1945.
 
I can answer that one. Lexingtons (all 6 become flattops) SD design was a WW I rush disaster. Postwar need a new one, and it will be the 1927 pattern that will eventually become the 1935-37 North Carolinas.
No you cant really know, its totally in the air what would get built as we cant know who would decided, the USN, Harding or Congress .....

I agree that some Lexingtons will get converted but not sure that they would all be or that they all even get finished and the real problem is that saying no to the SDs might well mean no new battleships get paid from by congress. Even if they are not great all or some of them will be finished to match off IJN new 16" ships just for political/pride reasons without considering any tactical ones.

Thought (^^^) I'd go Nelson on you and make your RN 1930 nightmare a reality.
Not sure why A) is RN nightmare or B) all forward is actually better unless weight limited?
Dead meat to a 1935 North Carolina. Designed either as a 35.5 cm or 40.6 cm. Pick your poison.
Why is G3 dead meat to any NC class even a super 1935 one? Even if its a bad fair fight it can still run a dam sight faster away.....?
 
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Really? The US had to BUILD three floating drydocks for the Iowas, because the weighs size-wise, (12 x 300 meter available) could not handle the weight of the hulls.
The USN built the docks for the forward bases against Japan.
This had long been seen as a need in War Plan Orange.
 
If the "St Louis" had been built as designed, it would have been a trade protection "cruiser" and so listed under the WNT/LNT definition. Of course it would have been a treaty cheat, if allowed.
Heavy cruiser tonnage could be used for hybrid flight deck cruisers. This was in the 1930 London Treaty but only the USN was in a position to use it. Tone is more like an upscaled Swedish Gotland seaplane carrier.
 
G3 can probably catch and fight anything ever built in OTL with a reasonable 40~60% of wining. (ok Iowa could run)

"I say Admiral, those gents are being awfully unsporting today with their torpedo planes and dive bombers!"

The moment that carriers could practically launch enough planes in all weather, with a heavy enough payload to be a threat to capital ships, every battleship ever made is of no longer of any value to its navy besides as a heavy AA escort or naval gunfire support.
 

McPherson

Banned
"the four G3 battlecruisers were ordered on 24 October 1921, without names, from John Brown, Swan Hunter, William Beardmore and Fairfield." GB had plenty of slips to build large ships and as said above also had large dry docks (mostly limited to home waters so not ideal)........

John Brown would have to strengthen their weighs as would Fairfield. So... this has to be an assumption in the naval contracts let at the time. $.

Great apart from the fact that we really know any likely opponent will be fighting the front 6 guns as they (KM/RM) try to run away with only the stern mounted 4x15", 3x15", 5x12.6", 3x11", etc?

Bismarck did not run. Generally the RKM did not run when they had to fight. And for that matter, when the odds were not too unequal, neither did the RM. Now... who did run, even when the odds favored them? You would not expect it, nor would you suspect it from their past history; but Coral Sea, Midway, Eastern Solomons, Santa Cruz, Truk, Philippine Sea and Leyte Gulf ring some bells? YAMATO ring a bell?

G3 can probably catch and fight anything ever built in OTL with a reasonable 40~60% of wining. (ok Iowa could run)

And gun her down. SHW US 40.6 cm could be a nasty surprise. I am not chest thumping or even going to go that ridiculous route. Hear me out. An Iowa's guns and cycling times and fire control were fearsome for a late 1930s design. I think that given the later build and knowledge of her era, any nation's BB even the defective Yamatos would be a lot tougher against the G3 than either of us realize or could imagine. Even a Bismarck might be dangerous. I know a Richelieu would be.

I think plenty of old ships pre WWI have very small crews that would be manned by naval reservists when mobilised, ie for example the pre-dreadnoughts and armoured/protected cruisers in third fleet.

Expected. This is what the RN did. Other navies imitated. The USN tended to mothball and expect to raise and train levies of sailors to man the reserve fleet. For the USN this worked. In Europe, where the enemy is next door, it did not, hence the RN system.

Bigger shells are a real advantage when they hit things, there is a reason that the size of guns kept getting bigger from 1905 to 1945.

Bore diameter you mean. At some point the working pressure behind the shell exceeds the metallurgy of the time and the gun becomes unmanageable. Yamato was the limit. Make your shell denser and skinnier (length to diameter ratio is 7 or 8 to 1 instead of 5 or 6) and you get an SHW with the same SMASH out of a smaller bore diameter. You give up some bursting charge as cargo, but you punch through armor plate just as well and ruin the other guy's afternoon or evening.

The USN built the docks for the forward bases against Japan.

This had long been seen as a need in War Plan Orange.

True, but those docks were stuck in the US building Iowas and Midways.

No you cant really know, its totally in the air what would get built as we cant know who would decided, the USN, Harding or Congress .....

I can read the General Board minutes as they advised on the WNT. They were the ones who set the characteristics of the USN, not Harding or Congress. Tillman be damned.

I agree that some Lexingtons will get converted but not sure that they would all be or that they all even get finished and the real problem is that saying no to the SDs might well mean no new battleships get paid from by congress. Even if they are not great all or some of them will be finished to match off IJN new 16" ships just for political/pride reasons without considering any tactical ones.

Again the GB minutes illuminate some of the American thinking. Harding was running a bluff, but Congress (packed full of isolationists) still handed over the chunk of change as if he meant it for real. During the negotiations, there was a lot of infighting about what to do with the ships on the weighs. Given the garbage that the SoDaks were, and the nature of the bluff, it was adjudged that giving up the SoDaks for halting Britain cold, during the Washington conference before she got rolling would give the USN a technical advantage. Ten years holiday, the British would lose any experience edge in the shipwright art as better US designs emerged.

Not sure why A) is RN nightmare or B) all forward is actually better unless weight limited?

:biggrin:

Some technical history. First, the armored citadel is short and thick (Nelson, Richelieu). Second, this is before the Northamptons and the development of superhigh pressure water-tube boilers and steam turbines and reliable geared final drives for the USN (around 1933). You get 400 PSI (2.75790292 megaP) and that's it. And you have electric final drives. This is USN around 1924... So, compact hull, tactical turn circle of 1400 meters at 10 m/s, Ford Mark 1 fire control. Colorado type barrels and gun pits in the barbettes rated for 40 degree elevation, it is NTG for what is a British WW I design. (The G3) which carries forward all the recognizable defects in layout and design philosophy of the HMS Hood. Now a Nelson? Don't want to meet that. Guns are crap, but the rest of that angry oil tanker is better executed than anything until Richelieu or the 1941 SoDaks. That includes the KGVs by the way.

Why is G3 dead meat to any NC class even a super 1935 one? Even if its a bad fair fight it can still run a dam sight faster away.....?

1. Shells are faster than battleships. 1935 USN shooting is a lot better than 1915 USN shooting, and the RN ship has recognizable vulnerabilities in the way the secondaries are laid out, the magazines that support them and the poor protection aft. A G3 is dead meat precisely because of these factors.

2. Furthermore, based on WW II history the RN did not design interwar against SHOCK. The USN did. That will show up in battle. Repulse, PoW, DoY, all suffer mechanical casualties because of shock. Name me an RN carrier, and ditto. No criticism. It was simply that the RN did not know what shock did to mechanical systems. The only reason the USN did was because when they bombed and shot and torpedoed targets with live ammo after WW I, they examined the hulks (the Mitchell tests). They did not share the knowledge. Another thing to remember, is that the RN had to build in a hurry after the LNT, so that may be a reason for not adequately shock mounting powertrains or mechanicals. So let's presume the RN does shock proof the way the USN did, and the G3s benefit? What does that do about the defective magazine and deck armor protection schemes at the forward superstructure? Shrug. A 1000 kg 40.6 cm shell hits there and it is the Hood all over again. A design weakness exploit.
 

McPherson

Banned
Heavy cruiser tonnage could be used for hybrid flight deck cruisers. This was in the 1930 London Treaty but only the USN was in a position to use it. Tone is more like an upscaled Swedish Gotland seaplane carrier.

The USN decided against the "St Louis" because they found that the takeoff run was too short for the next generation of USN scout bomber. Tone was the IJN doctrinal solution to scouting for their aircraft carrier fleet. The Gottland was too slow, too small and laid out wrong. It really was not the inspiration.

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is more in line with IJN thinking.
 
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Bismarck did not run. Generally the RKM did not run when they had to fight. And for that matter, when the odds were not too unequal, neither did the RM. Now... who did run, even when the odds favored them? You would not expect it, nor would you suspect it from their past history; but Coral Sea, Midway, Eastern Solomons, Santa Cruz, Truk, Philippine Sea and Leyte Gulf ring some bells? YAMATO ring a bell?
The Japanese focus on force preservation has always looked to me like they were trying to lose a long war instead of winning a short war. I don't know where it originated, but I've heard people say that only one Axis power fought to the last room, of the last house, on the last street, in the last city, and it wasn't the Japanese. I have no primary sources, but it seems like they were too concerned with the post-war balance of naval power to actually win the war. US doctrine since the 1830s has basically always taught (even if it hasn't always been followed) if in doubt, attack.

Bore diameter you mean. At some point the working pressure behind the shell exceeds the metallurgy of the time and the gun becomes unmanageable. Yamato was the limit. Make your shell denser and skinnier (length to diameter ratio is 7 or 8 to 1 instead of 5 or 6) and you get an SHW with the same SMASH out of a smaller bore diameter. You give up some bursting charge as cargo, but you punch through armor plate just as well and ruin the other guy's afternoon or evening.
Here's a comparison between the US 12"/50 Mark 7 that went on the Wyoming class and the US 12"/50 Mark 8 that went on the Alaska-class.
......................................Mark 7................Mark 8
Date in service.................1912...................1944
Gun weight......................56 tons................55 tons
Chamber volume..............194 L...................194 L
AP Weight........................870 lbs................1,140 lbs
AP Length........................42 in....................54 in
Length to width ratio.........3.5......................4.5
Bursting charge................25 lbs..................18 lbs
Prop charge.....................337 lbs.................275 lbs
Muzzle velocity.................2900 fps...............2500 fps

At 20,000 yards with WWII shells, the Mark 8 would give an extra three inches of belt penetration and inch of deck penetration over the Mark 7's lighter shells. The jump from the AP Mark 5 (2,240 lbs) to AP Mark 8 (2,700 lbs) also included a length increase from 64 to 72 inches and an LWR increase from 4 to 4.5. Yamato's shells had an LWR of about 4.25, though the later version had a modified ballistic cap and an LWR of 4.5.

1. Shells are faster than battleships. 1935 USN shooting is a lot better than 1915 USN shooting, and the RN ship has recognizable vulnerabilities in the way the secondaries are laid out, the magazines that support them and the poor protection aft. A G3 is dead meat precisely because of these factors.
Iowa and/or New Jersey straddled but did not hit a fleeing Japanese destroyer during the raid on Truk at a range of about 42,000 yards. These shots were air-spotted (by Bunker Hill's CAG, no less) because they were at the very edge of radar range. A G3 would have had a similar speed advantage over a North Carolina but would have had no chance to shoot back because of the arrangement of the guns. The G3's secondaries would have had a range of about 26,000 yards (25,000 yard gun range + 1,000 yards for NorCar moving at ~13 m/s), and they would have been in turrets with 1.5 in faces and 1 in roofs. The secondary arrangement gave eight guns aft and four on the broadside (six on the NelRods). Richelieu also had aft secondaries, with nine guns aft and six on the broadside.

The USN decided against the "St Louis" because they found that the takeoff run was too short for the next generation of USN scout bomber. Tone was the IJN doctrinal solution to scouting for their aircraft carrier fleet. The Gottland was TOO SLOW. It was not the inspiration.
Japanese carrier doctrine by the mid-1930s was very much strike oriented, much like their torpedo destroyer forces. US carrier doctrine generally developed as a replacement for battlecruisers with the combined strike/scout role. To concentrate mass available for strikes, the entire scout role was offloaded to the cruiser floatplanes, augmented by fast seaplane tenders. The Japanese followed this doctrine at Midway (where Tone and Chikuma were present) but not at Coral Sea, where carrier-based torpedo bombers played an important role as scouts.
 

McPherson

Banned
Japanese carrier doctrine by the mid-1930s was very much strike oriented, much like their torpedo destroyer forces. US carrier doctrine generally developed as a replacement for battlecruisers with the combined strike/scout role. To concentrate mass available for strikes, the entire scout role was offloaded to the cruiser floatplanes, augmented by fast seaplane tenders. The Japanese followed this doctrine at Midway (where Tone and Chikuma were present) but not at Coral Sea, where carrier-based torpedo bombers played an important role as scouts.

That was because "King Kong" Hara at Coral Sea was a much better aircraft carrier admiral than "Finger In The Wind" Nagumo at Midway or "Braindead" Takagi who relieved Hara at Coral Sea and botched the battle's closing stages. Hara believed in scouting and reconnaissance and refused to adhere to the "all attack all the time" doctrine the IJNAS practiced. Braindead relieved him and took direct command of aircraft carrier operations on that basis.
 
John Brown would have to strengthen their weighs as would Fairfield. So... this has to be an assumption in the naval contracts let at the time. $.



Bismarck did not run. Generally the RKM did not run when they had to fight. And for that matter, when the odds were not too unequal, neither did the RM. Now... who did run, even when the odds favored them? You would not expect it, nor would you suspect it from their past history; but Coral Sea, Midway, Eastern Solomons, Santa Cruz, Truk, Philippine Sea and Leyte Gulf ring some bells? YAMATO ring a bell?



And gun her down. SHW US 40.6 cm could be a nasty surprise. I am not chest thumping or even going to go that ridiculous route. Hear me out. An Iowa's guns and cycling times and fire control were fearsome for a late 1930s design. I think that given the later build and knowledge of her era, any nation's BB even the defective Yamatos would be a lot tougher against the G3 than either of us realize or could imagine. Even a Bismarck might be dangerous. I know a Richelieu would be.



Expected. This is what the RN did. Other navies imitated. The USN tended to mothball and expect to raise and train levies of sailors to man the reserve fleet. For the USN this worked. In Europe, where the enemy is next door, it did not, hence the RN system.



Bore diameter you mean. At some point the working pressure behind the shell exceeds the metallurgy of the time and the gun becomes unmanageable. Yamato was the limit. Make your shell denser and skinnier (length to diameter ratio is 7 or 8 to 1 instead of 5 or 6) and you get an SHW with the same SMASH out of a smaller bore diameter. You give up some bursting charge as cargo, but you punch through armor plate just as well and ruin the other guy's afternoon or evening.



True, but those docks were stuck in the US building Iowas and Midways.



I can read the General Board minutes as they advised on the WNT. They were the ones who set the characteristics of the USN, not Harding or Congress. Tillman be damned.



Again the GB minutes illuminate some of the American thinking. Harding was running a bluff, but Congress (packed full of isolationists) still handed over the chunk of change as if he meant it for real. During the negotiations, there was a lot of infighting about what to do with the ships on the weighs. Given the garbage that the SoDaks were, and the nature of the bluff, it was adjudged that giving up the SoDaks for halting Britain cold, during the Washington conference before she got rolling would give the USN a technical advantage. Ten years holiday, the British would lose any experience edge in the shipwright art as better US designs emerged.



:biggrin:

Some technical history. First, the armored citadel is short and thick (Nelson, Richelieu). Second, this is before the Northamptons and the development of superhigh pressure water-tube boilers and steam turbines and reliable geared final drives for the USN (around 1933). You get 400 PSI (2.75790292 megaP) and that's it. And you have electric final drives. This is USN around 1924... So, compact hull, tactical turn circle of 1400 meters at 10 m/s, Ford Mark 1 fire control. Colorado type barrels and gun pits in the barbettes rated for 40 degree elevation, it is NTG for what is a British WW I design. (The G3) which carries forward all the recognizable defects in layout and design philosophy of the HMS Hood. Now a Nelson? Don't want to meet that. Guns are crap, but the rest of that angry oil tanker is better executed than anything until Richelieu or the 1941 SoDaks. That includes the KGVs by the way.



1. Shells are faster than battleships. 1935 USN shooting is a lot better than 1915 USN shooting, and the RN ship has recognizable vulnerabilities in the way the secondaries are laid out, the magazines that support them and the poor protection aft. A G3 is dead meat precisely because of these factors.

2. Furthermore, based on WW II history the RN did not design interwar against SHOCK. The USN did. That will show up in battle. Repulse, PoW, DoY, all suffer mechanical casualties because of shock. Name me an RN carrier, and ditto. No criticism. It was simply that the RN did not know what shock did to mechanical systems. The only reason the USN did was because when they bombed and shot and torpedoed targets with live ammo after WW I, they examined the hulks (the Mitchell tests). They did not share the knowledge. Another thing to remember, is that the RN had to build in a hurry after the LNT, so that may be a reason for not adequately shock mounting powertrains or mechanicals. So let's presume the RN does shock proof the way the USN did, and the G3s benefit? What does that do about the defective magazine and deck armor protection schemes at the forward superstructure? Shrug. A 1000 kg 40.6 cm shell hits there and it is the Hood all over again. A design weakness exploit.

The problem I have with your analysis is that the NelRods which you rightly talk up were an adaptation of the G3 design and laid down at about the same time so I suspect that the Final G3 design as built would have been very similiar in protection to the NelRods and with the same 'crap guns' - although they seemed to have been sorted out by the late 30s and with 4 ships / double the turrets the issues might have been resolved sooner.

Although with hindsight the British might have been better off sticking at 15" with the excellent Green Boy style shells.

Also the 'Powder' Magazines were under the shell Magazine - the British reversed the positions placing the Powder further down under the water level in the NelRod, 4 Rebuilds and KGVs in the light of learnings from WW1

Vanguard did not due to Austerity reasons - although the Powder was not kept in the original magazines and was also stored lower down in the ship.

And Hood was always intended to have this 'reversal' during any major rebuild which of course never happened.

So it is not a simple case of 'shoot here for large explosion' any more than shooting a NelRod in the same place would be in fact the main portion of the deck armour was going to be 8" thick maximum over the NelRods maximum 6.25".

A lot of thought had gone into preventing inbound shells from reaching the Magazines!
 

hipper

Banned
"I say Admiral, those gents are being awfully unsporting today with their torpedo planes and dive bombers!"

The moment that carriers could practically launch enough planes in all weather, with a heavy enough payload to be a threat to capital ships, every battleship ever made is of no longer of any value to its navy besides as a heavy AA escort or naval gunfire support.

The all weather bit here is only true in the mid fifties
 

McPherson

Banned
The problem I have with your analysis is that the NelRods which you rightly talk up were an adaptation of the G3 design and laid down at about the same time so I suspect that the Final G3 design as built would have been very similiar in protection to the NelRods and with the same 'crap guns' - although they seemed to have been sorted out by the late 30s and with 4 ships / double the turrets the issues might have been resolved sooner.

Naw. The same dispersion problems and poor aerodynamics due to wrong twist in the rifling and wrong ballistic shell cap shape persisted past Bismarck. I'll unpack the armor in just a bit.

Although with hindsight the British might have been better off sticking at 15" with the excellent Green Boy style shells.

I sure do agree with this. The British 38 cm/45 with its Green Boys was possibly the finest naval artillery ever floated.

Also the 'Powder' Magazines were under the shell Magazine - the British reversed the positions placing the Powder further down under the water level in the NelRod, 4 Rebuilds and KGVs in the light of learnings from WW1.
Yeah, about that, it absolutely worked to actually doom PoW via shock when she took those bomb misses close aboard.

Vanguard did not due to Austerity reasons - although the Powder was not kept in the original magazines and was also stored lower down in the ship.

Agree, but since I think she is the penultimate RN Lessons Learned on how to do it right (A belt of pre-detonate wrapped the final magazine protective belt.), it seems a shame to criticize her for being tardy (Like I facetiously did. (^^^).)

And Hood was always intended to have this 'reversal' during any major rebuild which of course never happened.

Since the section of Hood that blew up is missing we have no way to trace the final plunge path of the shell that got her. I suspect that the inverted trapezoid armor scheme and the facing aspect as she made her turn actually drove the Bismarck shell BELOW the 4 inch magazine (fire location?) and it was a flash up into the powder room that caused the fatal fire and final explosive burst. IOW moving the powder room around might have done nothing. Inerting the propellant to shock (modern practice) might have been a better fix. YMMV and probably should since too much WAG and hindsight is invoked. Knowing what the RN knew, it was reasonable for them to try the solution they used.

So it is not a simple case of 'shoot here for large explosion' any more than shooting a NelRod in the same place would be in fact the main portion of the deck armour was going to be 8" thick maximum over the NelRods maximum 6.25".

But we have examples of this very exploit being a fatal flaw in several nations' BB's: Arizona, South Dakota (almost), Hood, Yamato, PoW, Roma, Bismarck, etc.

A lot of thought had gone into preventing inbound shells from reaching the Magazines!

I don't disagree. It just seems that even more experience (Vanguard) shows more evolution of solution.
 
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McPherson

Banned
The all weather bit here is only true in the mid fifties

Operation Deep Freeze. Aside from Russia, AFAIK, the only navy that has trained to fight in a storm at sea currently is the USN. Might add that it was WW II practice (1942 OJT USN) for IJN and USN CTFs to hide from each other inside weather fronts, poke their noses out to launch and recover and expose themselves to clear fair weather as little as possible. IOW rough weather operations was supposed to be doctrine and normal for both navies. Very hard on aircrews. 10% operational losses to weather. NTG for SAGs either. (SAVO ISLAND and FIRST GUADALCANAL). Weather was a force multiplier for the ambusher.(Pearl Harbor).
 
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