What if the USSR built it's Long-Wave radio facility in North Vietnam after China refused it in 1958

If the USSR built the long-wave radio station in North Vietnam in 1958 that China refused

  • Sino-North Vietnamese relations and wartime cooperation would have weathered any upset

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • China would have declined to support North Vietnam's war later war efforts

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • Because of possible Chinese upset, North Vietnam would have refused the USSR proposal

    Votes: 1 11.1%

  • Total voters
    9

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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In OTL, on a visit to China in 1958, Kshev proposed to Mao that the Soviets build a Long-Wave radio facility in Hainan island for global communications with submarines and that the PRC and USSR operate a joint fleet of submarines off the PRC coast.

Mao flipped out at the suggestion, and this was a piece of the deterioration of Sino-Soviet relations as the decade turned.

Despite interpretations of neocolonial nefariousness, Kshev's proposal was pretty much a reasonable suggestion to increase Soviet naval effectiveness against the US which had a much, much better supporting infrastructure along the open oceans.

What if Kshev shortly after this proposed at least building the communications facially in North Vietnam in 1958. For the Soviet Navy, North Vietnam's geographical position would have been fairly similar to Hainan island, allowing better coverage of the South Pacific and Indian Oceans.

How pissed would Mao have been at the North Vietnamese if they accepted this facility. Would it have altered or lessened the support China was in OTL willing to provide to North Vietnam in its operations in Laos and against North Vietnam in the 1960s?

Might the North Vietnamese have refused, possibly checking in with Beijing and finding them dissatisfied?

IF they did that, would the USSR have been permanently offended by North Vietnam, and disinclined to support their war effort later?
 
Neither the Soviets or chinese are going to just let the Americans set up shop in Vietnam, support for the north Vietnamese will go forward regardless.
 
Hard to say. I'd say that the then-leaders of DRVN would accept the proposal, under heavy compromise (the radio must also serve the VPA and suc ides)
 
I'm not really sure they could have done that. If I recall correctly, ELF transmission sites required a certain type of geology - right kind of soil, right type of bedrock, right depth of soil above the bedrock - and this was more important than the actual part of the world in which it was situated. If I am remembering that correctly, it's possible that North Vietnam would not have even worked.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
I'm not really sure they could have done that. If I recall correctly, ELF transmission sites required a certain type of geology - right kind of soil, right type of bedrock, right depth of soil above the bedrock - and this was more important than the actual part of the world in which it was situated. If I am remembering that correctly, it's possible that North Vietnam would not have even worked.

Very interesting, I had not followed that, any useful links? Do the same soil and bedrock limitations apply to VLF as ELF radio transmission?
 
Very interesting, I had not followed that, any useful links? Do the same soil and bedrock limitations apply to VLF as ELF radio transmission?

I'm glad you find it interesting. No, the bottleneck for VLF transmission is geographical, rather than geological - a VLF transmitter needs to be very large (many square miles), but can only penetrate to around periscope depth for a submarine - whereas an ELF transmitter uses such a long wavelength that it actually has to use hundreds and even thousands of square miles of the Earth itself as part of the antenna, and can reach hundreds of meters below the surface.

The ELF system requires somewhat specific geological conditions - fairly even terrain, sandy soil, with a solid and consistent layer of low-conductivity bedrock at a rather shallow depth. The antenna consists of two or more dipoles placed many miles apart on the surface, and the bedrock between and below those poles acts as an antenna and reflector for the low-frequency signals. For example, Project Sanguine was spread out all over 30,000 square miles of Northern Wisconsin and Michigan's Upper Peninsula, with some antenna poles almost 100 miles apart. But anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself.

I don't have any links handy, but if you research Project Sanguine you should find a wealth of information. That was the US Navy's version of the ELF submarine communications system in the 70s. The Soviets had a similar project (Zeus, I believe) that required a much longer wavelength, but in return offered much deeper penetration for their missile boats. The wavelength required a baseline well over a hundred mils in length, IIRC. I believe they eventually situated it somewhere on the Kola Peninsula, where the geology was similar to the Canadian Shield of Northern Wisconsin and the UP.

It was pretty cool technology at the time, and well worth the read. The basic principle was that they would use the geology to reflect the low-bandwidth signal off the bedrock up to the ionosphere, then bounce it back down to the entire northern hemisphere, and drive it all the way down to the submarines hundreds of meters below the surface. But, it all depended upon the proper geological conditions. Which could only be found in a few areas on Earth.
 
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