What if the Spartacus league took control of Germany instead of the Nazi's?

It would do the communist cause good to have a counter balance to USSR style system. Difficult to see France and Britain letting this happen however.
 
It depends on how much support they have among the general public. Weimar Germany, especially in its dying days was very chaotic and prone to civil war, with political violence on the streets being an everyday occurrence.
 
How would this effect the socialist movement, and would it ally with the USSR

I take it we are speaking about the Spartikist Movement of 1919, and not of the KDP in 1933, as the question suggests...

If we are speaking about the Spartikists then for them to have any control over Germany, Ebert's SDP must have fallen from grace, perhaps by refusing to ally with General Groener. However, that would still lead to a nationalist controlled Germany as the Spartakists did not have enough support across Germany with the Soviets (German workers councils) supporting mostly the USDP and the SDP.

Even if they were to pull off a Bolsheviks and defeat the Germany Army and the freikorps, that still leaves them open for foreign intervention which would undoubtably happen. The West tried to intervene Communist Russia that was at the other side of the world, they are undoubtably try and stop Communism spreading from Germany. Remember the Allied Nations still had their forces in Europe (as any revolt by the Spartikist is likely to happen before Versialles) meaning that if Germany turn Communist it would have been the perfect excuse to give up on negotiating and actually invade Germany like many of the French Generals wanted to happen...

In other words, a Spartikist controlled Germany is not just unlikely but if it does arrise expect it to be short lived as it will face the full force of the Allied Popwers invading Germany...
 
The Spartakusbund actually had a fit of bad luck IOTL. If they had managed to avoid the "January uprising" then the Freikorps wouldn't have been able to kill Luxemburg and Liebknecht, and they could've had a somewhat better outcome later in the year. If you really want to give them a better chance, though, you'd need to have Luxemburg and Liebknecht organizing a left wing within the party from before 1910, and be able to challenge Ebert for control of the SPD when Bebel dies in 1913. You could get a wholly different situation in WWI, no SPD voting war credits moment in 1914, and a much stronger revolutionary movement - the SPD would probably split but a much larger Luxemburgist wing.

A red Germany necessarily means a very different 20th century. The USSR proceeds differently and doesn't dominate the Comintern like IOTL. Revolts that IOTL fail may have better international support and succeed, like the biennio rosso in northern Italy in 1919-20, the Hungarian soviet republic of 1919, the Shanghai commune of 1927. Spain would turn out wholly different if Germany and all or part of Italy were communist by 1936 - not only would fascism not have its reputation but the main forces arming the Nationalists are gone, and the Republic gets German arms.

Of course, counter-revolution might also be emboldened, you could see a major backlash to communist Germany. But it would be very different with Germany under a red flag, you'd have actual shared prosperity and not the generalized misery of actual Soviet Russia that helped Stalin and the bureaucrats rise to power.
 
Does anyone believe that the Allies would have allowed a communist regime in Germany to stand in 1919? At this point there were still foreign troop in Arcangel and other parts of Russia trying to put down the communists there. Wilson, Clemenceau, and Lloyd George would ALL have found a Red Germany completely unacceptable.

Even if the Spartacists had gained control of Berlin and much of the state I don't believe the bulk of the German Army would ever have gone over to them. The navy may have mutinied but the army never did, the majority remained obedient to their commanders right up until the armistice. Hindenburg, Groener, and the other generals would never have supported the new regime. They likely would have formed their own government with some conservative politicians and promptly surrendered to the Allies in exchange for their help in restoring order. If they are faced with a choice between occupation by the West or seeing the Fatherland go communist I believe the generals and conservatives will choose the former. In their eyes ANYTHING is better than the revolution. They would after all have the gruesome examples of both the French revolution and the recent Russian one to show them exactly how much they had to lose.

The result would be Western and German troops marching to Berlin to exterminate the communists and restore order.

Likely this would be enough to scare the Allies into making a more moderate peace. They don't want Germany going Red and would be willing to be more conciliatory to make sure a democratic regime survives.
 
If France, the UK and everyone else intervene in Germany... would they have forces to spare to assist the Whites in Russia?
 
Does anyone believe that the Allies would have allowed a communist regime in Germany to stand in 1919? At this point there were still foreign troop in Arcangel and other parts of Russia trying to put down the communists there. Wilson, Clemenceau, and Lloyd George would ALL have found a Red Germany completely unacceptable.

Even if the Spartacists had gained control of Berlin and much of the state I don't believe the bulk of the German Army would ever have gone over to them. The navy may have mutinied but the army never did, the majority remained obedient to their commanders right up until the armistice. Hindenburg, Groener, and the other generals would never have supported the new regime. They likely would have formed their own government with some conservative politicians and promptly surrendered to the Allies in exchange for their help in restoring order. If they are faced with a choice between occupation by the West or seeing the Fatherland go communist I believe the generals and conservatives will choose the former. In their eyes ANYTHING is better than the revolution. They would after all have the gruesome examples of both the French revolution and the recent Russian one to show them exactly how much they had to lose.

The result would be Western and German troops marching to Berlin to exterminate the communists and restore order.

Likely this would be enough to scare the Allies into making a more moderate peace. They don't want Germany going Red and would be willing to be more conciliatory to make sure a democratic regime survives.


I agree with all of that apart from the moderate peace bit, I think you might find that this would be the excuse the French were looking for, for their independent Rheinland buffer state...
 
If France, the UK and everyone else intervene in Germany... would they have forces to spare to assist the Whites in Russia?
They couldn't have sustained such an intervention, logistically or politically. Not on the scale it would be necessary. They might send token forces there, but that would only enrage the nationalists. If the army's leaders try to cooperate with them, they'd be discredited.

The old order really can't afford to cooperate with it's former enemies to fight the Spartakusbund. If they do, their troops will end up fighting for the socialists, who will capture the nationalist sentiment. They'll have to fight them alone.
 
They couldn't have sustained such an intervention, logistically or politically. Not on the scale it would be necessary. They might send token forces there, but that would only enrage the nationalists. If the army's leaders try to cooperate with them, they'd be discredited.

The old order really can't afford to cooperate with it's former enemies to fight the Spartakusbund. If they do, their troops will end up fighting for the socialists, who will capture the nationalist sentiment. They'll have to fight them alone.

I have to disagree.

The old order can't afford to let the revolution succeed. That would be the ultimate disaster for the ruling class, for the Junkers, the industrialists, and pretty much everyone with wealth or land. Given what happened in Russia and what happened in France during the Terror all these people will be afraid for their lives. At the BEST if the revolution succeeds they stand to lose all their property and belongings.

When the wolf is at the door you can't pick and choose who can come and kill it for you. Following World War One the German Army is on no shape to deal with a massive revolution at home and will need western aid. I suspect that in this situation the generals are going to be seen as saviours by putting down the Reds, even at the cost of allowing their foreign enemies onto their soil. No doubt the 'stabbed in the back' legend will be even more prevalent in this OTL. The nationalists will blame the surrender and the foreign occupation entirely on the Spartacists, in their version of things the Army is completely blameless.

Like most people the Germans usually managed to believe whatever they wanted to believe.
 
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