What if the Social Democrats rebuilt Germany?

OTL Germany was rebuilt on a christian democrat fashion with social liberal tendencies, as the government kept social conservatism with worker's rights and adopted economical ordoliberalism.

On another hand, we had the growing dirigism on most of the third world, with places like Korea, Japan, latim america, and even some first world countries like France adopting economic interventionism.

Assuming the SPD is elected instead of Adenauer CDU, and Germany goes for economic dirigism, how would Germany develop? Also, how would their Bundeswehr look like?
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You are ignoring that, outside of Latin America, most of those dirigist/economic interventionist countries were governed by conservative parties-the LDP in Japan, Gaullists in France, Park Chung Hee and his successors in South Korea. West Germany's economic policies weren't exactly laissez faire considering the incorporation of corporatist elements and expansion of the Bismarckian welfare state. A SPD-governed West Germany would probably pursue policies more akin to Scandinavia or Great Britain under Attlee.
 
You are ignoring that, outside of Latin America, most of those dirigist/economic interventionist countries were governed by conservative parties-the LDP in Japan, Gaullists in France, Park Chung Hee and his successors in South Korea.

So what? The social democrats had dirigisme as their main doctrine in germany, the ones supporting liberalism were the christian democrats. The question is what happens if the Socdems got their way.
 
My two cents are that, first of all, you need to know who the SPD forms a government with to see how coherent could the implementation of Dirigism be. Are we talking about a SPD/FDP coalition, a Grand Coalition, or even a broad Left government?
 
My two cents are that, first of all, you need to know who the SPD forms a government with to see how coherent could the implementation of Dirigism be. Are we talking about a SPD/FDP coalition, a Grand Coalition, or even a broad Left government?

All scenarios are available here.
 
For starters, this means that the first West German chancellor would be Kurt Schumacher. I doubt that he, as someone who spent more than a decade in multiple concentration camps and had his health permanently crippled because of that (dying at the young age of 56) would allow the pardon of hundreds of thousands of Nazi criminals, which would have all sorts of effects.

The first I can think of is that Kurt Georg Kiesinger (a former member of the NDSAP, even if not a very active one) probably wouldn't become chancellor. West Germany could also have a stronger presidency, since Schumacher was in favor of that. The Oder-Neisse line would also be recognized by Bonn earlier.

Could we end up having an united, neutral Germany in the 1950s?

Most importantly, what sort of POD could make the SPD win in 1949? One of Adenauer's closer friends/allies is revealed to have been an active former Nazi, perhaps?
 
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I gonna call the two main experts I know on this area to help us.

First, for the economic question and maybe info about how the reacts would react for such a socdem victory, i summon you, oh great lord @fasquardon!

And second, about Germany itself and maybe how we could elect Schumacher, and how the bundeswehr could be rebuilt, I summon Herr @Stenz
 
Why does the SPD win?
You shouldn't only look at the narrow margin between the CDU/CSU'S 31 % and the SPD's 29.2 %. If you look at the variety of smaller parties who obtained seats in the Bundestag, too, you'll see that most of them were rather conservative. And the FDP was at least as much right-of-centre as the CDU/CSU was at that point in time. On the other hand, if things in the SBZ go as IOTL (with the forced unification between SPD and KPD, the Berlin Airlift and all that), I don't see SPD and KPD forming a coalition - and even if they did, that would not bring them even close to a majority.
You'd need a major landslide. How does it come about? That is an important question because it will of course affect what an SPD government would do.
 

Deleted member 94680

And second, about Germany itself and maybe how we could elect Schumacher, and how the Bundeswehr could be rebuilt

I really can't see Schumacher being elected if everything else stays more or less as OTL. He was opposed by the WAllies owing to his socialist stances and that more or less crippled his chances of being elected Chancellor. The best bet is either different approach by the WAllies (unlikely, IMHO) or possibly earlier elections? The longer there is between West Germany being formed and the elections being held, the worse the chances of Schumacher's SDP winning are.

You can't have Schumacher being more "WAlllied compatible" without radically changing his character and therefore his standing in society (and paradoxically his chances of being elected) IMHO.

As to the Bundeswehr, if Schumacher is Chancellor, I can't see it being an "Armed Forces" in any sense of a major Western Power. The chances of ex-Wehrmacht officers rising to prominence are slim as well. I would imagine probably something along the lines of the Swiss Army? A large border patrol force or essentially a militarised Police Force?
 
As to the Bundeswehr, if Schumacher is Chancellor, I can't see it being an "Armed Forces" in any sense of a major Western Power. The chances of ex-Wehrmacht officers rising to prominence are slim as well. I would imagine probably something along the lines of the Swiss Army? A large border patrol force or essentially a militarised Police Force?
Maybe it is more like the early JSDF which was largely the domain of Home Ministry bureaucrats (the first head of the JSDF (Keizo Hayashi) had no military experience prior to being named head of the National Police Reseve (aka the proto-JSDF) at all).
 
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Kurt Schumacher was actually relatively moderate towards low level Nazis and Mitläufer (people who just went along) if you consider his biography.
For example he pointed out publicly that men where drafted into the Waffen-SS, and should therefore not be considered Nazis.

He was not against Germany rearming nor an alliance with the west, but had the condition that the army would need to be strong enough to fight the Soviets outside of Germany (Weimar Borders) with strong and fast tank units, having the decision between Vistula and Dnjpr.
(Spoiler: not happening)
Any German army with any serious fighting power would have to rely on Wehrmacht officers, at least at the beginning.

While I have great respect for Schumacher, I doubt he would have been a good chancellor.
He was very sick.
He did not have any governmental experience.
He wasn't a man of compromise and lacked the skills to hold a coalition together and would not have time to develop them.

Pre Godesberg, the SPD was still a worker's party, not a big tent party, and therefore had little chance to get more than a third of the votes.
 

Deleted member 94680

He was not against Germany rearming nor an alliance with the west, but had the condition that the army would need to be strong enough to fight the Soviets outside of Germany (Weimar Borders) with strong and fast tank units, having the decision between Vistula and Dnjpr.
(Spoiler: not happening)
Any German army with any serious fighting power would have to rely on Wehrmacht officers, at least at the beginning.

That is simply not true. The Schumacher SPD wanted the borders of Germany restored in a single, unified, state. The co-operation with NATO would be conditional on Germany having a strong, independent voice in the use of their forces. Military action aimed at the Soviets was never proposed under Schumacher. The SPD opposed the European Defence Community, the Schuman Plan and the European Council for this very reason. Under Schumacher, the Flensberg SPD organisation was reprimanded for advocating taking parts of Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark and the Saar SPD were censured for endorsing Paris's plan to incorporate the Saarland into the French economy.

Obviously Wehrmacht officers would be used, simply being of military age in post-WWII Germany would imply Wehrmacht service in the individual's past. I was meaning more something along the lines of the OTL high-level figures "changing uniforms" and bringing WWII views with them. In fact, I could see Police officers becoming Generals in the "Schumacher Bundeswehr" rather than infantry or Panzer officers.
 
That is simply not true. The Schumacher SPD wanted the borders of Germany restored in a single, unified, state. The co-operation with NATO would be conditional on Germany having a strong, independent voice in the use of their forces. Military action aimed at the Soviets was never proposed under Schumacher. The SPD opposed the European Defence Community, the Schuman Plan and the European Council for this very reason. Under Schumacher, the Flensberg SPD organisation was reprimanded for advocating taking parts of Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark and the Saar SPD were censured for endorsing Paris's plan to incorporate the Saarland into the French economy.

Obviously Wehrmacht officers would be used, simply being of military age in post-WWII Germany would imply Wehrmacht service in the individual's past. I was meaning more something along the lines of the OTL high-level figures "changing uniforms" and bringing WWII views with them. In fact, I could see Police officers becoming Generals in the "Schumacher Bundeswehr" rather than infantry or Panzer officers.

I don't see a contradiction.
Maybe to clarify I was not suggesting that Schumacher was advocating WWIII.
In case of a conflict Germany should not be the battlefield.
And the position of SPD after his death on military policy can't be simply be taken as his.
He was always on the right wing of the party.
 

Deleted member 94680

I don't see a contradiction.

Fair enough, but I think we disagree as to Schumacher's foreign policy direction?

Maybe to clarify I was not suggesting that Schumacher was advocating WWIII.

Neither was I. He never advocated joining NATO (or an analogue) either. Any co-operation with the WAllies was always meant to be in exchange for reunification of Germany.

In case of a conflict Germany should not be the battlefield.
.

As OTL and in the aftermath of WWII unlikely to be wanted by the former Allied Powers - at least in the early period of the post-War era. So where did this "strong fast tank" formation idea come from?

And the position of SPD after his death on military policy can't be simply be taken as his.

Agreed. But where was I talking about post-Schumacher policy?

He was always on the right wing of the party.

On the right of the left possibly, but I would never describe Schumacher as "right wing".[/QUOTE]
 
I really can't see Schumacher being elected if everything else stays more or less as OTL.
OK, what if it isn't more or less like OTL--that is, the general pattern of Germany going Nazi happens, the Grand Alliance of Soviet Union with Commonwealth and USA does happen, victory of the Allies happens pretty much as OTL--but the character of the Western Allies is different, and more socialistic?

Quick outline of a POD and developments mainly focusing on the USA here:

1) Theodore Roosevelt does not challenge Taft for Taft's reelection in 1912. This is most easily accomplished by TR not surviving his world tour after he handed over the Presidency to Taft in 1909--he dies on safari maybe, or just catches some disease somewhere, he didn't last to 1920 or IIRC even 1916 OTL after all. So Taft stays the course and a sufficient majority of voters vote Republican--if we take the combined popular votes for both TR and Taft OTL, we can whittle them down a lot and still have Taft win the EV--probably with a small but solid PR plurality as usual.
2) Taft, being the weak fellow he was (many suggest the main driver of Taft's career was his wife's overweening ambition, basically henpecking him into attempting things way out of his comfort zone) continues to be basically the compliant tool of the corporate wing of the Republicans, and many disparate factions not so well allied to each other but reformist to revolutionary and quite disgruntled continue to build up steam. In 1912 for instance I'd suggest some people, not a lot but some, who voted for TR switch to backing Eugene Debs instead, and there are yet more Republicans of OTL who vote for reformist progressive Republicans--I am not sure if Robert LaFollette can be the man, but maybe. The reformist to revolutionary spectrum is by no means strong enough, even if unified as they won't be, to command majorities, but they are influential and have some considerable power in some locations and sectors.

Taft accordingly bows to orchestrated business-Republican interests who want in on the Great War which develops as OTL without regard to Yankee affairs, until the USA comes in on the Entente side but on different terms, well before Taft must leave office in 1917. Another Republican gets elected on a jingoistic platform. Woodrow Wilson is an also-ran flash in the pan and the several Amendments and other reforms of the OTL Wilson years are deferred. But some of their subjects make progress anyway--women's franchise was achieved to a large degree on state by state initiative for instance, Prohibition might never happen on a Federal level but be quite strong in swathes of states and Federal authorities might have legal leeway to assist these states; direct state election of Senators was something that actually the states could have done piecemeal, there is no Constitutional barrier--to my surprise, unlike women's franchise, no states actually tried it until just a handful of years before the Federal amendment passed, but a few did take that step and in the ATL I suspect quite a few states would institute it Amendment or no Amendment. Federal Income Tax would require an amendment, and perhaps the hawkish corporate Republicans would want it and smooth the way for a version of that Amendment alone, or perhaps devise a workaround according to the Constitution, which limited Congress to the option of a head tax on the states, meaning each state would have to pay according to population without reference to income. This would not be popular in the poorer states (but might be in the states with higher per capita incomes) but it might be deemed Constitutional, or simply left unchallenged, to devise some scheme whereby on a "voluntary" interstate compact basis, the richer states subsidize the poorer ones to equalize the burden to de facto be a state proportional wealth tax. (Note, this apparently radical idea was exactly the formula the Articles of Confederation imposed on the states--it failed because the Continental Congress had no means of compelling the states to comply, which moots the question of how politically sustainable a claim to assess the wealth of the various states would be--I suspect it might work about as well politically as the income tax did. The question of how each state would raise its share of the nominal head tax would presumably be left to the states in principle, though model legislation might be a guideline most states follow. The more radical states might well go in for a strongly graduated income tax or wealth tax, the more conservative ones lean on a "flat" income tax or even sales or other regressive taxes, including a highly regressive head tax maybe).

The USA enters the Great War with a lot of fanfare and jingoistic persecution of dissidents, as with Wilson's handling of it OTL.

Then the war does not go so well. There is no way I think the Entente can lose with the Yanks coming, but perhaps the Republicans badly mishandle issues of strategy and diplomacy, and US doughboys go into the trench war meatgrinder in a way that eventually has major political repercussions at home. Not immediately, of course, wartime censorship is effective, and the Entente will win, pretty much on OTL terms. But the onus of the dark side of the Great War is on the hitherto ascendent conservative Republicans and their Dixiecrat allies.

3) therefore there is a strong left-progressive reaction when the dust settles, and the boys come home and vote. This has effects south of the Mason-Dixon line as well as north; not every "white" southern state electorate is equally under the spell of Jim Crow and general Lost Causer mythology. There are radicals who can see through the mythology and champion various more or less pragmatic progressive alliances, some working within state Democratic establishments they take over, others in bold opposition which occasionally succeeds. Rarely if ever does this involve even progressive Republican ascendency, usually it is some new third party or some party still claiming the Democratic mantle, and plenty of reaction still holds sway over much of the South. But not all of it! In the north and west the ascendency of various progressives is more straightforward, and it is compromised by opportunistic corporate sector types who see that they had better try to ride this whirlwind rather than try to repress it.

4) I often note that OTL, the electoral reform of Single Transferable Vote is overlooked, but in fact it prevailed in a great many US cities in the period between 1900 and the Cold War, around 1950, eventually such cities as New York City went STV for their city councils. What if instead of stagnating and eventually being demonized as a Red plot, the trend redoubles and various states go over to STV for state legislatures and electing their Representative delegations? (Such states would presumably make election of their federal Senators by Instant Runoff Voting, which is the single-seat implementation of the STV mechanism, and probably such offices as state governor and other statewide single person offices too). At this point the movement involves no formal reforms in Congress; per the Constitution, Congress devises a "population proportional" means, guided by the US decennial Census, to allocate Representative seats to the states, and then (until the Civil Rights era of the 1950s-60s OTL) SCOTUS and other authorities held it was up to the states to decide how they would popularly elect these Representatives. In 1952 OTL for instance, several states elected one of their delegation at large, and two elected two by running both at large. So no Constitutional impediment exists in a state that is granted say 9 Representatives to decide to divide itself into three districts which each elect three Representatives by STV. (OTL, in the Civil Rights era, between various precedent breaking SCOTUS and lower federal and state court rulings, and legislation in compliance with these court rulings enacted by Congress, invoking its authority to judge its own elections, the rule was laid down that all Representatives must be elected in single member districts, though not specifying FPTP which was merely assumed--states can still decide to use a different mechanism than FPTP, such as IRV, to elect each member, and Maine has done this).

Thus, if STV and perhaps some alternative voting reforms in rivalry or combination, becomes a popular reform plank, in the ATL early to mid 1920s reacting strongly against conservative ascendency seen as dragging the USA unwisely into the Great War plus a whole head of steam of other reformist causes, we might see quite a lot of states switching over to these non-FPTP methods, which would tend to make the House of Representatives more proportional, and tend to enable rival parties to the Republican-Democratic duopoly to establish themselves on a long term national basis, probably with most of them having a specific regional bastion to be sure. Enough of that, and neither mainstream duopoly party would have a majority in the House and perhaps with enough third party Senators being elected, not in the Senate either, forcing a change of rules for how the Houses operate recognizing the wider distribution of partisan power.

Thus, I think we can postpone and amplify the reformism of the mid-1910s to the early to mid 1920s.

Perhaps it can be justly argued that conservative influences remain strong enough for the conservatives to make a comeback by the later 1920s, but I don't think they'd be able to, or much inclined to, roll back the progressive reforms wholesale.

5) then as OTL the Great Depression hits. Now some people are of the opinion that things like the Depression are easily butterflied; I hold a quite different view that the basic cycle of boom and bust is deeply embedded in capitalism, and that the more irregular cycle of generations of general recession (weak booms, long deep depressions) versus buoyant periods (short and mild depressions, long and broad booms) also is grounded in deep factors that are quite hard to butterfly. I believe proximate causes of crashes we identify as "the cause" can be shifted around, magnitudes of depths and heights reached in troughs and booms varied somewhat, but overall the broad width and depth of economic waves is pretty well fixed.

Meanwhile, if we want the late 1940s to be broadly similar to OTL, we surely do better to stipulate this theory of broad and deep persistence of economic trends under capitalism!

6) the Republicans and conservative Democrats (and perhaps conservative to moderate third party allies) having recently and weakly regained ascendency, and some Republican president of the Hoover type (perhaps not improbably Herbert Hoover himself, he'd pass muster of moderate reformists pretty well, probably better than Calvin Coolidge would have certainly in the ATL 1924) fumbles the ball with predictable conservative hidebound ideology. Now perhaps the Hawley-Smoot Tariff which many of the more butterflyable persuasion like to blame for the length and depth of the Depression would not pass in similar form, but some other error of fiscal policy (as seen in retrospect) does comparable damage. Or HS passes essentially as is. Or no such egregious fumble is inflicted by Congress but the Depression turns out to be a huge crash anyway.

It would be at this point that we have AtL respectability of various diverse parties that are more or less socialist (shored up by strong social democracy and moderate but pragmatic liberalism) could build up momentum to take the House back in 1930 and the Presidency for a forthrightly social democratic/socialist candidate in 1932. Instead of FDR we have an ATL populist wave for a more forthright radicalism that steamrollers politically over conservative opposition, making compromises with the corporate sectors that buy their acceptance and in some cases even recruit some to positive support for a much more proactive public involvement in the economy. Thus, the American left cements itself about as well as FDR did OTL as a more radical New Deal.

7) for reasons broadly similar to FDRs, perhaps with more emphasis on democratic idealism and less on realpolitik power, the leftists in ascendency oppose European fascism and Japanese militarism, and support various factions of Chinese republicanism. Thus, belatedly as OTL, the USA enters WWII. It is possible that by the time the USA does enter the war, the moderate right has made another comeback and it is some moderate Republican of the Dewey type who is running the US war effort. But whether or not the nominal Presidency in the year of European victory is an actual elected Socialist, or is a conservative opponent, even the latter cannot silence or quell a broad support for leftist social democracy in the USA whose victory would probably be seen by many as a victory for economic democracy supporting political democracy.

Meanwhile in the Commonwealth, whether or not the stronger fortunes of American leftists have any bearing on Parliament before Britain enters the war and before Churchill forms a War Cabinet inviting in Labour to govern alongside Conservatives and Liberals, we have little reason to doubt the British electorate with its Services Vote would also veer left just as in OTL, and it is quite possible that despite conservative notions even a Republican US President will have a clear mandated demand from the American electorate to assist a Labour leaning Commonwealth.

Would this necessarily butterfly away the Cold War? I think not; the American leftists are on a spectrum that surely would include some Third Internationalist Communists obedient to the Kremlin line. But these would hardly be the majority of the left! A much larger portion would range from a peculiar mix of conservative and progressive planks (like the OTL Prohibition party) to a pretty hard line socialistic but still distinctly Second International bunch of Socialists, and probably there would be some Trotskyite Fourth Internationalists too. The Comintern Reds might well achieve a greater degree of electoral legitimacy and somewhat broader support, but many who joined with them as at least fair weather friends in the '30s might veer instead into the Debs-Norman Thomas Socialists, or jump right over to Trotskyism. The latter are likely to get into serious trouble with US reactionary forces finding plenty of pretexts to ban and persecute them, but the former would be under cover of respectable American practices so long as they don't attempt violent or otherwise criminal methods. And even card carrying Communists might find their political rights better protected, as long as they are individuals who cannot be prosecuted with evidence beyond reasonable doubt of specific criminal acts.

If Stalin is as OTL, I would expect a broad national patriotic line of friendship for the Soviet Union during the war, in which many leftists outside the CP are if anything more skeptical and queasy about it that the reactionaries are, followed by most US leftists being disillusioned (many feeling it vindicated their doubts they held all along) at Soviet behavior postwar. A firm anti-Communist line might form that does not react against socialism (or such reforms as STV, or civil rights) in general, with socialist leaders taking an early and firm stand against Stalin's brand of Red imperialism.

Meanwhile, in London, and in other Commonwealth capitals, we can expect moderate leftism to be riding high too, significantly higher even than OTL if US policy supports the leftist Commonwealth policies with various forms of both moral and material aid.

In France, it is only OTL to note that the Left tended to prevail in the Fourth Republic's governments.

So now, it is 1949, time to launch a new Federal Republic of Germany under domestic leadership after 4 years of de-Nazification that probably went a lot stronger than OTL or somewhat so anyway.

The Christian Democrats, their moderate-conservative candidates having undergone stricter scrutiny, might be in quite a weaker position, along with the other moderate-conservative parties. The Social Democrats, known foes of Naziism who paid dearly for their opposition to Hitler, are more in tune with the ATL US political spectrum as well as with the British and French ruling parties.

It seems entirely likely in such circumstances, that it would be an SD who wins the Chancellorship first and defines the nature of West German politics into the foreseeable future, and such a regime would be a fine ally in the ATL version of NATO.
 
Does something happen to Adenauer?
It hardly has to if our POD involves the Western Allies shifting farther left in the years leading up to the war and coming out of the war more social democratic-socialist than OTL. Schumacher might not be the SD leader, or Schumacher might take different policy positions in view of a more supportive USA and Commonwealth. Then he or some other SD leader more au courant with a farther left configuration of Western powers can just win out on Bundestag votes, full stop.

Possibly a USA that has gone for STV across the board might influence the Federal Republic to adopt that mechanism instead of MMP. Frankly I dislike some aspects of STV and would like to see an explicit partisan guarantee of seats, ideally in principle with no goddam threshold (other than the natural one of the number of seats nationally forming a natural quota)--I can see though that the West German situation, with real fear among moderate-liberal-leftists that neo-Nazis or anyway dark reactionaries could gain legitimacy by winning token seats, and a countervailing fear among conservative-liberal-moderates that the radical left could do so, pretty much would make a hurdle of some kind over and above seat quota a near certainty.

I think a combination of STV with registered candidate alliance proportionality (that is, formally the parties are not involved; everyone is voting for individuals in principle, but the individual candidates register their support for allies within their STV district and in other districts, and whichever alliance wins an excess of seats above their national proportion results in twice their overhang being added and the shortchanged other alliances reap most of those overhang seats--with the rough proportionality of STV winnowing down such overhangs, the additional members added by this process would be few in number) we'd have a good system for both the Federal Republic and perhaps it would react back on the USA, with states and cities adopting the de facto though not formally partisan proportionality and the House of Representatives eventually folding it into Congressionally mandated STV for all states, explicitly waiving by amendment exact state delegation population proportionality on the theory that the House of Representatives should represent American citizens as such, not states as such. We'd need an Amendment because the Constitution does specify population-proportionality--again, with STV providing a rough first draft approach to PR, the shifts of state representation would be smaller in magnitude than those that arise from inability to proportion each state to exactly equal representation and from variations in turnout, I think. In the USA I envision we would not want or have hurdles--a lot depends on the proportionality formula used, on the spectrum between d'Hondt-Jefferson and Hamilton's method of greatest remainders, with Huntington-Hill and Sainte-Legue-Webster lying between these extremes. I like Hamilton best because it is most inclusive; Jefferson/d'Hondt winning out would be a de facto hurdle though less stringent than Germany's OTL 5 percent.

Anyway, with or without hurdles, is it that difficult to imagine that differential effects of the patron occupying powers' shifted domestic politics could shift Germany too?
 

Deleted member 94680

He, like the rest of the german opposition, was in a concentration camp late in the war, you can have the nazis killing him before the war ends as a PoD

Would removing Adenauer be enough to see Schumacher become Chancellor? Who would lead the CDU in his absence? Would there even be a CDU in his absence?
 
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