What if the sino-soviet union was formed or the soviet union annexed china?

What do you think would have happened? I think that china would not have a socialist market economy and Deng Xiaoping would not ever come to power.
 

Lusitania

Donor
The Russians including Stalin considered the chinese along with all other Asians as below the Europeans. This had been the traditional Russian attitude during the 19th century and continued into the Soviet Union. To incorporate the Chinese into a Soviet led communist unionist would of meant the Chinese would always be Soviet dominance regardless of population size. This of course was totally unacceptable to the Chinese and Mao who expected to be treated as equals. Therefore this union was doomed from day 1.
 
At the end of the day, Chinese communists, like Vietnamese ones, were also nationalists. They would not support China becoming a subservient territory of Moscow. The USSR would end up facing a large war if they tried to take over China, something that wouldn’t be easy - just ask the Japanese.
 
The USSR wasn't a properly communist state. Communism at it's root aims was a global society where everyone was equal. The Soviet Union was a new Russian Empire, but with the "Communist Party", and in particular Stalin, ruling with an iron fist instead of the Tsars.

If the countries merged as a proper communist state, then the Han Chinese and not the Russians would dominate. Ultimately, as seen by the "Great Patriotic War", the USSR was a nationalist state.
 

Lusitania

Donor
The USSR wasn't a properly communist state. Communism at it's root aims was a global society where everyone was equal. The Soviet Union was a new Russian Empire, but with the "Communist Party", and in particular Stalin, ruling with an iron fist instead of the Tsars.

If the countries merged as a proper communist state, then the Han Chinese and not the Russians would dominate. Ultimately, as seen by the "Great Patriotic War", the USSR was a nationalist state.
There is no real communist country but nationalistic countries with a single party in charge and those in power receiving lavish benefits while others suffer. This is still true in North Korea, China and Vietname.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
This is one of the most bizarre topics that keeps being repeatedly posted in this forum. USSR didn’t even annex Poland, why the hell would it try to annex China?
 
This is one of the most bizarre topics that keeps being repeatedly posted in this forum. USSR didn’t even annex Poland, why the hell would it try to annex China?

You are right...

...time to create a thread: what if the USSR annexed Poland :biggrin:
 
It'd become Sino-centric given China's massive population. They'd outweigh the European Soviets and control the USSR in a matter of years.
 
Xinjiang is certainly possible as is Inner and Outer Mongolia. Anything else is drawing in large populations the Russians won't be able to dominate.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
The USSR wasn't a properly communist state. Communism at it's root aims was a global society where everyone was equal. The Soviet Union was a new Russian Empire, but with the "Communist Party", and in particular Stalin, ruling with an iron fist instead of the Tsars.

If the countries merged as a proper communist state, then the Han Chinese and not the Russians would dominate. Ultimately, as seen by the "Great Patriotic War", the USSR was a nationalist state.
There is no such thing as "communist state". That's an oxymoron. Communism is stateless. This is something both the Soviets and the Chinese understood very well. They never claimed to be communist; they claimed to be socialist states on the road to communism.
 

Lusitania

Donor
There is no such thing as "communist state". That's an oxymoron. Communism is stateless. This is something both the Soviets and the Chinese understood very well. They never claimed to be communist; they claimed to be socialist states on the road to communism.
In Canada we do have communist like communities. They Hutterite colonies as they are called are German origin religious community that like the Mennonites had emigrated to Russia in the 18th century but found it difficult to live there in the 19th century. Then these religious groups migrated to the Americas.

The Hutterite colonies live in a commune community. Each family has their own home but they live a communal life with meals being eaten in large Colombo rooms. The work of each colony is shared by all those in the colony and they even provide education on the colony. Members are free to leave if they wish.

This to me is true communism not what was and still is practiced in many countries. For I think anything beyond these colonies becomes unmanageable. Each colony is independent.
 
It'd become Sino-centric given China's massive population. They'd outweigh the European Soviets and control the USSR in a matter of years.

Until Stalin and Beria discovered that Mao, Zhou Enlai, Lin Biao, etc. had always been agents of the American, British, and French secret services, adherents of the Qing and Trotsky, working for the restoration of capitalism and the rule of the bourgeoisie, and having unmasked these dangerous opportunists-deviationists, had them receive the supreme measure of social self-defense --- RASSTREL! Death by shooting with confiscation of all personal property (Beria would like Mao's, er, "attendants").

GLORY GLORY GLORY TO THE GREAT STALIN, GREAT FRIEND OF THE EASTERN PEOPLES!!!
 
USSR can form a Mongolian SSR , how will china react to that ?

It would be taken as a needless provocation. Mongolia was already a SSR de facto.

This of course was totally unacceptable to the Chinese and Mao who expected to be treated as equals.

Even worse, the Chinese and the Soviets had different ideas of what "equal treatment" meant.

What do you think would have happened? I think that china would not have a socialist market economy and Deng Xiaoping would not ever come to power.

Honestly, it's hard to say, because to make this happen you'd need a PoD between 1917 and 1924 to somehow give us a very different Soviet Union that really believed in federating all socialist states together in itself.

Let's say Stalin doesn't come to power and instead it's Kamenev and Zinoviev. The pair feel vulnerable over not backing Lenin's coup, so are looking for places to "support the Revolution" that won't cause a war with Britain, France and the US. So they end up heavily involved in China in the 30s, supporting the Chinese Communists heavily. Since this means relations with the Chinese nationalists are terrible anyway, Xingjaing and Mongolia are made SSRs in the Soviet Union. Eventually a full war breaks out between the Soviets and Chinese Communists (who are wary of Soviet absorption of Chinese territory, but have to lump it to get needed support from the Soviets) and the Japansese and their Chinese puppets over Manchuria (the Nationalists are not a major factor due to the lack of OTL's Soviet support and due to infighting over whether the Soviets or the Japanese are the worse threat, with some breaking away to join the Communists and some becoming warlords for Japan).

The war see-saws, with outside powers giving scraps of help to each from time to time, since Japanese atrocities quickly dry up the initial pro-Japanese inclination among the uninvolved Great Powers and no one wanted the Soviets to win from day 1. Eventually, Nazi Germany, which has an even freer hand in Europe due to Soviet distraction in the East and which is financially stronger due to exporting arms to the Soviets, noms up Austria and Czechoslovakia, eats Poland on her own (confident the Soviets can't intervene, which proves correct), then conquers France much as happened in OTL. Then, Nazi Germany turns its back on Britain (still at war, just as OTL) and with its European allies, invades the Soviet Union.

The Soviets, though a bit stronger than OTL due to the war in the east and less ruthless leadership forcing them to be more pragmatic rather than trying to murder peasants until their ideology started working, and with a much more practised and better led military (again, having to be more pragmatic means there have been no Stalinesque purges and fighting Japan means the Soviets just understand how modern war works in practice much better) are still in a desperate position. The Chinese Communists, sensing their moment make a strong display of fraternal brotherhood during the initial crisis of the German invasion, and as the war goes on, are successfully able to extract concessions that shift the Russian-Chinese power dynamic inside the USSR from a quasi colonialist state to a more genuine international federation.

Eventually, the wars end as Japan is driven off mainland Asia and a truce is signed (though neither side will sign a peace treaty, since the Japanese refuse to give up on the idea that Korea is theirs and the Sino-Russians are unwilling to give up on Taiwan, the Kuriles and Sakhalin). The Soviets, now in alliance with Britain, (free) France and the US defeat Germany. In the decades of tense and fearful peace that follow, the Russians and the Chinese struggle to figure out how to work together well, the growing fear of the Western Powers for the Sino-Soviet Union (as they call it) exerts an external pressure, encouraging both Russians and Chinese to compromise in the interests of being able to present a united front to outsiders.

Eventually, in the 21st Century, while there is a disproportionate influence of Russian culture on that of the peoples of the Soviet Union, the sheer size and depth of Chinese culture has proven stronger.

fasquardon
 
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