What if the Serbian empire survive

The Serbian Empire is not likely to survive; the realm is too divided, and the Ottomans are too powerful, unless you have an early POD, and even that is hard.
 

Red Orm

Banned
I think the biggest chance for this is to have Dusan Silni survive for longer, or somehow be even more ambitious than he was in OTL. He could certainly be more successful, certain things would just need to be tweaked. What Serbia lacked, however, is a centralized administration and system of governance. It was feudal, which is no big deal, but in a way that Dusan's lands and office, without a person as might as him, were essentially powerless against his vassals. There's a reason everything completely fell apart after his death, because without his forceful personality it couldn't be held together.

A possibility I've always wondered about is if he managed to somehow take Constantinople, and become true Emperor of the Serbs and Greeks/Byzantine Emperor/"Roman Emperor". He would then have the vast Byzantine administration to help him govern...but would still need a way to get all those vassals to heel. Maybe if he did this, the support of the Orthodox church would lead to the peasants supporting him over their lords? I dunno.

Anyone wants to create a timeline or pod where the empire survive?

You could do it yourself!
 

Deleted member 67076

The Serbs would be in a good place to reunite the Balkans if they held together rather than imploding.

Its worth noting that there were some individuals calling for Dusan to take the Byzantine throne during his intervention in the war. And he probably could take it if he plays his cards right; the byzantine aristocracy and by extension, the faction of John Kantakozenous (whom Dusan was sponsoring) was hated by the peasants. Removing him and breaking apart the aristocratic lands would give him insane amounts of support.

The Serbian Empire is not likely to survive; the realm is too divided, and the Ottomans are too powerful, unless you have an early POD, and even that is hard.
The Ottomans would hit a brick wall if they tried to take Stefan Dusan's empire.
 
I seriously doubt the Ottomans would hit a brick wall. The Serbs didn't expand because they were super strong but because the Byzantines were very very weak.
A better question to ask would be, what would the world look like if there was no Serbian empire. Would the Byzantines be more stronger to withstand the Turks.
 

SRBO

Banned
The Serbian empire started too late to withstand the Turks, if the turks are united. Making Uroš more competent and with a more dominating personality might prevent the catastrophic feudal disintegration partially, but there is the problem of that the newly conquered lands had no infrastructure because of the perpetual rebellion/lack of money in Byzantium. There is also the problem that absolutely every neighboring state wasn't very friendly. But if you weaken the Turks somehow and take their attention elsewhere Serbia could build up and consolidate the state and reign in the vassals
 
Well, the thing that really screwed over the Serbian Empire's chances was the civil war between Uroš V and his uncle Simeon in the 1350s. Had either of them defeated the other, the state could have recovered. As it was, both pretenders survived, the empire was split in two, and both were forced to coddle the aristocrats and lose power - the worst possible outcome, really.

I think it may have been better for Uroš to die early and Simeon to inherit the empire, but the reverse would probably work, too. As long as one of them is out of the picture. Simeon as Emperor would mean more experience and deeper ties with Greek parts of the state, while Uroš as Emperor means a more stable friendship with Bulgaria.

Dušan did try to support the peasants against the aristocracy. He established a network of state courts in which peasants could sue any aristocrat who tried to impose greater taxes and obligations or harm them in some other way. This maybe wasn't far enough, but it was a step in the right direction. The next Emperor would do well to continue along these lines and slowly erode the power of various vassals while maintaining peasant support, and creating the outline of a real central administration.

The only two of Serbia's neighbors which will pose a significant threat in these decades are the Ottomans and Hungary. They might actually be good for asserting the Emperor's legitimacy as a defender of the Orthodox realm - but defeating them is not going to be easy. IMO the Serbian Emperor should keep polite distance from the Pope (Hungary will always have greater influence there) and look for a purely Balkan solution to the Ottoman problem - ally with the Byzantines and maybe Bulgaria to retake Gallipoli and confine them to Anatolia. Not sure how to deal with Hungary - fortify and pray that a unified empire has the strength it needs against any attacks from the north (which is a reasonable expectation).

Also, there was once a fairly good timeline about Stefan Dušan taking over the Byzantine Empire, here.
 
The Serbs would be in a good place to reunite the Balkans if they held together rather than imploding.

Its worth noting that there were some individuals calling for Dusan to take the Byzantine throne during his intervention in the war. And he probably could take it if he plays his cards right; the byzantine aristocracy and by extension, the faction of John Kantakozenous (whom Dusan was sponsoring) was hated by the peasants. Removing him and breaking apart the aristocratic lands would give him insane amounts of support.


The Ottomans would hit a brick wall if they tried to take Stefan Dusan's empire.
Dushan was a flash in the pan. Serbia could not hold out long in all likelihood while remaining Serbian, and the new regime would make more enemies the further it spread. .
 

SRBO

Banned
That is also the problem. Nonslavs, barring Albanians, will be very tough to assimilate and serbianize

edit:

the only direction Serbia can expand is Bulgaria (linguistic differences back then were minimal) and after that into Moldova and towards Crimea, but that would piss off Hungary who had interests in the area
 
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Deleted member 67076

I seriously doubt the Ottomans would hit a brick wall. The Serbs didn't expand because they were super strong but because the Byzantines were very very weak.
The Ottomans were no where near as strong as they would be until they had cemented a power base in the Balkans, which took them a solid decade to do just in Thrace. Prior to Murad's ascension they were another beylik in the region that was weaker than their surrounding neighbors.

Any intervention before that region was conquered and colonized by the Turks would not be difficult. Their troops at the time were largely unprofessional, consisting of Ghazi troops whose morale and loyalties were questionable the minute conquest stops flowing in, and the Janissaries consist of about 1,000 trained boys who lack their famous gunpowder weaponry.

Now while I won't overestimate the Serbs, its worth noting that under Dusan they routinely beat the Hungarians, the Latin troops in Greece and any remnant Byzantine forces.

A better question to ask would be, what would the world look like if there was no Serbian empire. Would the Byzantines be more stronger to withstand the Turks.
Depends on who wins the Palaiogian Civil Wars, of if they are prevented. The Turks don't have a navy, and the only Anatolian power with a fleet worth anything was allied to the Byzantines at this time, so if they aren't invited in they won't be getting into Europe at all.

Dushan was a flash in the pan. Serbia could not hold out long in all likelihood while remaining Serbian, and the new regime would make more enemies the further it spread. .
His untimely death made it that way, but the state had potential to last. During his later years he began to essentially Byzantinize his state, copying their rituals and administrative practices. Most likely, the empire doesn't stay Serbian as we know it, but takes greater and greater Greek influence as the administrative apparatus is packed with skilled bureaucrats from Byzantium.

The regime was already unliked by all of its neighbors sans Bulgaria (who is currently rapidly decentralizing and thus being neutered as a threat should they decide to turn against the Serbs.)
That is also the problem. Nonslavs, barring Albanians, will be very tough to assimilate and serbianize

edit:

the only direction Serbia can expand is Bulgaria (linguistic differences back then were minimal) and after that into Moldova and towards Crimea, but that would piss off Hungary who had interests in the area
Wait, why do linguistics matter in a pre nationalistic era? Religion is far more important than ethnicity in this time period, and all the region sans the Croatians share Orthodoxy (and that can change).
 

SRBO

Banned
Wait, why do linguistics matter in a pre nationalistic era? Religion is far more important than ethnicity in this time period, and all the region sans the Croatians share Orthodoxy (and that can change).

Dušan favored the peasants quite heavily, his law book was written on the people's language and not the different literary form so everyone could understand. This could lead to interesting things if continued
 
Wait, why do linguistics matter in a pre nationalistic era? Religion is far more important than ethnicity in this time period, and all the region sans the Croatians share Orthodoxy (and that can change).

While it is a pre nationalistic era, culture & linguistics mattered as much as religion. If the native population can't understand their overlords then they will consider them as foreign occupiers. If their overlords don't share their culture then they are barbaric occupiers. The orthodox Slavic population could have serbizised (if the empire lasted long enough) but the Greeks would have tolerated the Serbs until the first opportunity to get rid of them.

I think you are somewhat overestimating the Serb army. Most of their conquests were sieges of cities that had no one to relieve them. It's best units were mostly mercenaries (German calvary, latin infantry...etc) whose loyalty was bought by the highest bidder. Their army had to control a huge area that was occupied in a short time interval and control numerous different ethnic groups whose loyalty is questionable. Add to that that all of the empires neighbors were hostile and some were pretty dangerous (Hungary). You can also add in a seriously annoyed Pope who was not happy with Dušans conduct towards his catholic subjects.
Like I said before, I find it hard to believe that the Ottomans would hit a brick wall when they cross over to Europe. Thats my opinion.
 
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