What If... The Roman Empire Meet The Han Dynasty

IIRC there was one battle where Chinese soldiers fought Romans used as auxiliaries in Central Asia during that timeframe. The Chinese soldiers won. The question would be whether the Chinese weakness in terms of court intrigue or Roman weakness in terms of civil war-as-succession would be the more fatal weakness.

AFAIK, it's an apocryphal story based on a Chinese account of soldiers who fought vaguely like a Roman army. They could have just as likely been Soghdians or Daylamites.
 
What if a general at that time has parents coming from both empires at that time and he know both languages, customs, military tactics...etc !?

I wonder what he can he learn from Han dynasty when fighting other nations and vice versa from Roman empire...:confused:
 

Esopo

Banned
IIRC there was one battle where Chinese soldiers fought Romans used as auxiliaries in Central Asia during that timeframe. The Chinese soldiers won. The question would be whether the Chinese weakness in terms of court intrigue or Roman weakness in terms of civil war-as-succession would be the more fatal weakness.

What battle are you refering to?
 
What battle are you refering to?

I think he's talking about the Battle of Zhizhi. The chinese described about a hundred warriors fighting in "fish-scale formation" fighting under the Xiongnu chieftain Zhizhi. One historian thinks that "fish-scale" refers to the testudo, which is where the hypothesis comes from. It's a pretty big stretch though.

As for why Romans would've been there, the most likely answer would be that they're remnants of the Roman prisoners captured from Carrhae, whose fate is still unknown. The Han state that they captured these men, who then founded the village of Liqian. Interestingly enough, DNA testing of Liqian's modern inhabitants apparently confirmed Caucasian origin for most of them.
 
So how would the Roman Emperors reacted if they ever went to the Han Citys? What would the Romans think of their citys and arcitecture and what will the Han think of theirs?
 

Esopo

Banned
I think he's talking about the Battle of Zhizhi. The chinese described about a hundred warriors fighting in "fish-scale formation" fighting under the Xiongnu chieftain Zhizhi. One historian thinks that "fish-scale" refers to the testudo, which is where the hypothesis comes from. It's a pretty big stretch though.

As for why Romans would've been there, the most likely answer would be that they're remnants of the Roman prisoners captured from Carrhae, whose fate is still unknown. The Han state that they captured these men, who then founded the village of Liqian. Interestingly enough, DNA testing of Liqian's modern inhabitants apparently confirmed Caucasian origin for most of them.

Oh, right. I even red a novel about it, by this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerio_Massimo_Manfredi
It was pretty cool, but it seemed to me asbish.
 
As for why Romans would've been there, the most likely answer would be that they're remnants of the Roman prisoners captured from Carrhae, whose fate is still unknown. The Han state that they captured these men, who then founded the village of Liqian. Interestingly enough, DNA testing of Liqian's modern inhabitants apparently confirmed Caucasian origin for most of them.

Yes, but the Tocharians were closer and just as white.

However awesome it would be if that village was founded by transplanted Romans, the odds aren't so great.
 
Oh, right. I even red a novel about it, by this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerio_Massimo_Manfredi
It was pretty cool, but it seemed to me asbish.

In 1980, an American author named Munn wrote a book called The Lost Legion in which a Roman legion is sent into Asia on a suicide mission by Caligula, ostensibly to find the survivors of Carrhae and their eagle.

It was really interesting, although the amount of historical Easter-eggs is a bit much realism-wise--the son of one of the legionaries raised by Huns is implied to be the ancestor of Attilla the Hun, while the commander's son, trailing the legion, rescues the Apostle Paul from some bandits.

There's a more recent book series called "The Forgotten Legion" or something like that about the legion captured at Carrhae.
 
Well as a POD we could say have a plague in Persia during the time of Trajan and as a result of the second Parthian resistance he decides to strike eastward despite his age.
 
I think he's talking about the Battle of Zhizhi. The chinese described about a hundred warriors fighting in "fish-scale formation" fighting under the Xiongnu chieftain Zhizhi. One historian thinks that "fish-scale" refers to the testudo, which is where the hypothesis comes from. It's a pretty big stretch though.

As for why Romans would've been there, the most likely answer would be that they're remnants of the Roman prisoners captured from Carrhae, whose fate is still unknown. The Han state that they captured these men, who then founded the village of Liqian. Interestingly enough, DNA testing of Liqian's modern inhabitants apparently confirmed Caucasian origin for most of them.

Even if they where Roman soldiers a a hundred or so warriors in a larger fighting force doesnt seem like a very accurate comparrison.
 
Yes, but the Tocharians were closer and just as white.

However awesome it would be if that village was founded by transplanted Romans, the odds aren't so great.

Indeed. This particular theory has basically been rejected entirely. It's an enormous stretch from vague descriptions of a hundred warriors' fighting formation to the majority of a Chinese village being of partial Roman origin. I did a bit of reading, and yes, the Tocharians are much more plausible ancestors.
 

scholar

Banned
It was interesting as it explained that the Romans never desired war with the Han as they viewed them as being a) to far away to conquer, and b) having much more worth in trade. Similarily I believe the Han viewed the Romans as backwards and more as inferiors rather than equals.
Which is why the Chinese gave the Roman Empire the name Da Qin, or Great China, recognizing them as about as equal to the actual China as you could possibly get.
 
Because the Roman armies strength was that it was an almost entirely profesional fighting force, having a small group of professional roman soldiers as a small minority in the army is just as inaccurate as having a hundred horse archers in an army mainly made up of foot soldiers and calling it a mongol horde.

On a different note, would it have been possible for Rome to ally itself with the Han in order to attack on both sides of persia? There is tremendous benefit for both sides if they did that from the land connection that would result and both sides clearly desired the outcome.
 
Because the Roman armies strength was that it was an almost entirely profesional fighting force, having a small group of professional roman soldiers as a small minority in the army is just as inaccurate as having a hundred horse archers in an army mainly made up of foot soldiers and calling it a mongol horde.

On a different note, would it have been possible for Rome to ally itself with the Han in order to attack on both sides of persia? There is tremendous benefit for both sides if they did that from the land connection that would result and both sides clearly desired the outcome.

My mentioning of the Battle of Zhizhi had nothing to do with comparing the two armies. I was pointing out that there's an extremely minute possibility that Roman and Han soldiers met on the battlefield, not that this battle was a valid comparison of their fighting strengths, if they were Romans at all.

As for your idea, I doubt it could have worked. Organizing such a war would be an absolute nightmare, given the language difference and distance gap. Any communications would take months. Not to mention the Himalayas, which make any land travel significantly more lengthy and difficult. I doubt either side would have been willing to ally with a nation that is essentially unknown to them. Overall, Han China and Rome vs. Parthia is pretty ASB.
 
I've read about that as well, though i can't recall where.
What i read they were apparently several hundred of them, working as mercenaries due to them being cut off after a campaign in Persia. Always thought it was some silly theory, mainly because i couldn't find any credible sources for it

Yeah that rings a bell, they described them as wearing "Fish scales" or something, implying the Roman mail.
 
My mentioning of the Battle of Zhizhi had nothing to do with comparing the two armies. I was pointing out that there's an extremely minute possibility that Roman and Han soldiers met on the battlefield, not that this battle was a valid comparison of their fighting strengths, if they were Romans at all.

As for your idea, I doubt it could have worked. Organizing such a war would be an absolute nightmare, given the language difference and distance gap. Any communications would take months. Not to mention the Himalayas, which make any land travel significantly more lengthy and difficult. I doubt either side would have been willing to ally with a nation that is essentially unknown to them. Overall, Han China and Rome vs. Parthia is pretty ASB.

It's possible that they could both attack at the same time accidentally. "Oh... hello there. You invading this nation too?"

But that would end badly, probably, with them attacking each other, both mistaking the other for Parthian reinforcements. :D
 
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