What if the October Revolution never happened in Russia?

So let's say the February revolution still happens just like OTL and the Czar is overthrown and replaced with a provisional, democratically elected left-wing government.

What if, the Bolsheviks decide to honor the results of the election instead of starting a coup, and Russia stays on a democratic path for the rest of the 20th century, preventing the Soviet Union from ever existing.

What would Russia, Europe, and the World be like in this scenario?
 
I guess this Russia would not sign any Brest-Litovsk peace treaty with the Central Powers. It was hard enough for Lenin to convince the Bolsheviks to agree to it after all.
 

kernals12

Banned
You've just butterflied away the entire 20th century, my friend. Most of the conflicts since 1917 have been either caused by communism or fear of communism in one way or another. World War I (or the Great War as we'd probably call it) would be seen as the last gasp of despotism before the light of liberal democracy swept across the world whether it be Russia, Weimar Germany, Mussolini-less Italy, or Taisho Japan.

Let me put it to you like this:
36wcij.jpg
 
You've just butterflied away the entire 20th century, my friend. Most of the conflicts since 1917 have been either caused by communism or fear of communism in one way or another. World War I (or the Great War as we'd probably call it) would be seen as the last gasp of despotism before the light of liberal democracy swept across the world whether it be Russia, Weimar Germany, Mussolini-less Italy, or Taisho Japan.

Let me put it to you like this:
View attachment 476769

I'm pretty strongly anti-communist but I don't think Earth would be a Utopia without the October Revolution. That said it would probably be a better place.
 

kernals12

Banned
I'm pretty strongly anti-communist but I don't think Earth would be a Utopia without the October Revolution. That said it would probably be a better place.
No Hitler, No Stalin, No Mao, No Pol Pot, No Slobodan Milosevic, No Kim Il Sung.
It'd be about as close to a utopia as we could feasibly get.

The Middle East though would still be mostly authoritarian and Apartheid South Africa would still have existed.
 
So let's say the February revolution still happens just like OTL and the Czar is overthrown and replaced with a provisional, democratically elected left-wing government
You do realize that if by "provisional, democratically elected government," never mind if it is left wing or not, you have a flat contradiction to "just like OTL," don't you? I don't know whether to hope you do or don't know this is not what happened at all.

The February Revolution was not, like the October Revolution, a coup carried out by an organized revolutionary cadre with central command and a set agenda. It was triggered by a bunch of women who had simply had it with the latest ration cuts. Certainly the ability of the unorganized mass rising in Petrograd, soon followed by other such in other centers in Russia, to neutralize all Tsarist authority and maintain a form of order had a lot to do with general propagandizing of the masses by various rival groups, including the Bolsheviks. It also took a lot of self-organization from the dress rehearsal as it were of 1905, when the first Soviets emerged, which in turn were a synthesis of various left-wing programs and grass roots straightforward pragmatism. "Soviet" means "council" in Russian. In '05, various groups rising up seized control via organizing citizen councils at the grassroots levels, and these bodies claimed the authority, via direct democratic deliberation, to make the rules and set the policies; the Bolsheviks retroactively praised them; don't know what other radical groups such as the Social Revolutionaries, non-Marxists with their major support in the radical left wing out in the villages as radical agrarian populists, and in their right wing among various bourgeois intelligentsia. Alexander Kerensky was I believe a lawyer for the SRs and probably correctly described as a Right SR.

So in February 1917 (March on the Gregorian calendar, as the October Revolution was in November on those western calendars) the power that emerged was dual. The soviets reformed and had substantial power, such that the "Provisional Government's" orders were followed in Petrograd and most other places only with the city Soviet's countersignature. If you ask me, the Soviets were the proper and only government of Russia in these days.

The so-called and self named Provisional Government on the other hand had zero claim to democratic legitimacy. It was and throughout its existence remained a committee of self-appointed notables who simply pretended to inherent the authority of the Tsar--as noted, this was taken with huge grains of salt even by the more conservative of the residents of Petrograd and other key cities who comprised the makeup of the numerous grassroots soviets, each of which elected delegates to the city Soviet mentioned. It mainly impressed foreign governments, notably the Entente allies soon to include the USA. It was in their interest to pretend that the PG was in fact some kind of legitimate thing, and their influence that provided much of the PGs leverage in Russia.

As a pragmatic move, in view of the plainly leftist populism tending to dominate the Soviets, the PG prudently named Kerensky, as left wing a figure as they could find among themselves, to be the nominal head of their little clique. Had they been as forthrightly reactionary as their membership would suggest, they would have had to fight the Soviets head on, and given the sympathy for the Soviets by the larger part of the Army at this point (the Army was mostly recruited from the peasant majority, but over the years of painful war, lots of leftists punitively drafted to remove them from being able to agitate in the motherland grassroots agitated among the soldiers instead, and their constant getting kicked in the teeth by the German forces combined with revolution in Petrograd made the armies pretty much revolutionary too) I would not bet on the PG and its sympathizers lasting a day. In fact, the PG seriously considered trying to get the monarchy restored, either via instating some other high ranking Romanov or perhaps starting a new dynasty--even they recognized from the get go that reinstating Nicholas II himself was clean out.

If you take the position that the PG was in some sense a legitimate government of Russia, you have to also conclude Russia had no democracy at any point. By the time of the October Revolution, the PG had called a Constituent Assembly to draft a constitution for Russia, but it was in the middle of deliberations when the Bolsheviks shut it down. Nor do I think it was a particularly representative body itself, certainly its delegates had not been chosen by democratic means!

I consider the Soviets to have been the real and democratic government of Russia, but it is a sad fact they did not quite have the self-confidence nor generally granted authority to just shut down the PG's pretensions and take the reins as they were.

What you did in your OP, striking the "just as OTL" bit, was call for a POD right during or before the February Revolution, in which the people of Petrograd and other rising cities, in the middle of fighting off the authoritarian power that had ruled them all their lives and history before, with a brief interim in 1905 subsequently tricked into surrendering power and shunted aside, took some time for the side issue of organizing agreements to some sort of consensus democracy however ramshackle. To a degree that happened--the Soviets formed, and their authority was accepted by revolutionaries and most people.

The straightforward way to change the February situation to come close to your OP, barring the "just as OTL" bit, would be if several factions cohering in the city and grassroots Soviet leaderships had judged the PG's pretensions to be dangerous and agreed to take action immediately to disperse them, and explicitly repudiated their claims and assumed the mantle that the PG pretended to. I am hazy on certain aspects of the events of February but I believe there were weighty reasons no such consensus emerged and the PG was left standing to make its insidious claims of authority.

A variation on the theme would be if the factions favoring abolishing the PG agreed with more cautious or conservative ones at the time to compromise in a resolution for the Soviet to insist on demanding the PG be reviewed and purged of unacceptably reactionary elements by the Soviet, and operate as an "upper house" to the Soviet thenceforward, with agreements of the "higher" aristocratic-bourgeois body to be bound to coordination with the populist Soviet. But I honestly think that would just be circling Robin Hood's barn; sooner or later the Soviet would become fed up with its reactionary agenda and just shut it down. Perhaps in doing so it would unleash another round of civil war as the aristocratic and bourgeois circles--a tiny numerical minority, but commanding great wealth and considerable pre-revolutionary institutional experience, albeit with feckless outcomes!--drew around them a bodyguard of the more conservative popular elements who would thus be in rebellion against the Soviets, which would presumably become more leftist and radical as a result of this voting with their feet of the right wing elements. In this knock down fight, with the Germans still pressing at the heels of the Russian army on the fronts, I am not sure what the outcome would be but I would bet on the Soviets.

In turn, while in Russia as a whole, the SRs as party of the countryside would command a lot of scattered support, the Bolsheviks tended to gain more and more influence in the city soviets, and so this trajectory amounts I think to moving the dates around in the OTL 1917 process, if anything accelerating the day the Bolsheviks, perhaps still with left SR allies, take control of Petrograd and other strongholds in Russia, leading to the long OTL Civil War, in the course of which the left SRs probably still would break and be driven out of power and out of Russia ultimately.

What you need is to establish in Petrograd and at least some other Russian stronghold cities, and in sympathy with it among the troops, some ATL third party, or change the role of the SRs to take this role, so as to check the rise of influence of the Bolsheviks in the city soviets. Perhaps, if he observes that the Bolsheviks cannot gain complete control of the city Soviets and that a violent uprising by Bolsheviks alone would be overcome and destroyed, Lenin might shift, grudgingly, over to parliamentarian tactics and forge a lasting alliance based on a balance of power with selected other Russian left wing movements, and the multiparty dynamics resulting would sustain Russian democracy, presumably still centered in and based on the Soviet system, through an ATL October that sweeps aside the PG and its adherents but is stuck with meaningful democratic accountability via multi-party competition in the Soviets.
 
No Hitler, No Stalin, No Mao, No Pol Pot, No Slobodan Milosevic, No Kim Il Sung.
It'd be about as close to a utopia as we could feasibly get.

The Middle East though would still be mostly authoritarian and Apartheid South Africa would still have existed.
There is no reason to suppose Hitler came to power only because Germans were afraid of Soviet power. Also, with a scenario where some alternative form of left wing democratic Russian movement prevails, Russia would still be a dangerously subversive threat to the same people who denounced Bolshevism by that name.

The Nazis, and more importantly the various German right wing establishment cliques that played with the fire of putting Hitler in as Chancellor, would have had the same hatred of the people who OTL rallied to the Communist Party, under any name. Indeed even if Lenin's Bolsheviks are butterflied into a footnote of history, and even if Russia winds up under some reactionary or peasant-populist regime (the latter being quite likely to turn to Bonapartism and effective restoration of a dictator effectively a new Tsar anyway) I think the German Sparticists were quite capable of attempting revolution on Marxist lines without being inspired by Russia, and in the longer run radical Marxists would play essentially the same role in Germany.

Anyway the Nazis, and the conservatives favoring them, liked to blame Communism as a convenient scapegoat, but don't forget they had another one in reserve, indeed they attacked Communism mainly as a false front for the Jewish agenda they blamed for everything.

If the USSR as we know it had never formed, we have no reason to doubt that the Versailles treaty would be as harsh as OTL, or that left wing radicalism would appear as threatening in Weimar's founding days to create the same constellations of Freikorps and other haters of the left wing. There is no reason no USSR would butterfly away the Great Depression and create the general crisis in Germany that moved the German right wing powers that be to take a flyer on Hitler, and no reason then to doubt that Hitler would be able, as OTL, to find some scapegoats in lieu of the Communist International to ramrod his totalitarian takeover with, and proceed much as OTL. Except this time, Russia might well be a lot weaker! Maybe the Russian regime would be more simpatico with Naziism and assist Hitler in reducing Poland, just as the Poles participated in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, and having let a weaker ATL Russia seize eastern Poland, Hitler would, driven by his racist agenda and his grandiose ambitions, have attacked this Russia too. Only this time, the Russian capabilities being weaker, Barbarossa would be successful and assuming the British are fighting him at all, they and any new allies such as the USA they might then have picked up would be facing a Reich no longer drained by the Eastern front but rather in possession of Russian resources.

Overall, OTL the Soviets cost Hitler 2/3 of all the Reich's battlefield losses. It seems reasonable to say then that the Western allies would be facing at least 3 times the force Hitler was able to throw against them OTL. You might discount some German power for the losses they suffer taking ATL Russia, but I think securely controlling Russian resources more than balances that, and the realistic ratio between timelines would be more than 3 really.

Doesn't that cast some doubt on the western alliance being able to win at all? Surely Britain can hold out, surely the Reich loses global reach and is confined to Europe and whatever reach it actually took in Russia--I imagine at some point Hitler might cut his campaign off and leave some stretch of the farther east unchallenged, perhaps deeding it over to the Japanese to take as opportunity permits them. Then again if he can break Russian power, perhaps there is no reason for him to stop driving eastward to the Pacific after all. The farther east the Reich goes, the better it can project into the Middle East and threaten British India. But the Reich will suffer from lack of ability to trade globally--unless of course the western powers come to terms that permit that!

I think this notion that even Adolf Hitler and Nazi power are something to blame on Lenin is just ridiculous and founded on a distorted notion of history. It implies acceptance of the Nazi claim that their kind of extremism was somehow necessary to fight a worse evil in the form of Communism. In fact anti-Communism was an excuse and a cover for a sweeping anti-humanism that I think could just as easily overcome Germany in a world where no one ever heard of Lenin. And could well leave the world worse off, for lack of Soviet power to counter Hitler's.
 

kernals12

Banned
There is no reason to suppose Hitler came to power only because Germans were afraid of Soviet power. Also, with a scenario where some alternative form of left wing democratic Russian movement prevails, Russia would still be a dangerously subversive threat to the same people who denounced Bolshevism by that name.
I'd say that the Nazis' rise was a 3 legged stool:
1. Humiliation of Versailles
2. The Great Depression
3. Fear of Communism
Without any one of those 3, the Nazis' don't come to power.

Overall, OTL the Soviets cost Hitler 2/3 of all the Reich's battlefield losses. It seems reasonable to say then that the Western allies would be facing at least 3 times the force Hitler was able to throw against them OTL. You might discount some German power for the losses they suffer taking ATL Russia, but I think securely controlling Russian resources more than balances that, and the realistic ratio between timelines would be more than 3 really.
Have you heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?
 
Let's say that Kamenev and Zinoviev have their way and instead of a coup in October there is a peaceful transfer of power to a coalition government of all the socialist parties in the soviet. The short answer is that such a government could not possibly last, because of the disagreements about the war (among other things). It was hard enough for Lenin to get the Bolsheviks united behind Brest-Litovsk. The SR's and Mensheviks would never have agreed to such a disgraceful peace--but that was the only kind of peace available. Yes, Lenin was authoritarian-minded, but as Adam Ulam notes, "...for all the years of tight discipline, for all his enormous authority, it was still hard enough for Lenin to ride herd over the Bolshevik commissars who kept disagreeing and threatening to resign at the slightest provocation. Who could believe that a government with, say, Martov in its ranks would have ever been able to agree on a simple policy, would ever have been able to stop talking? Had Lenin been Thomas Jefferson and John Stuart Mill rolled into one, it still would have been difficult for him to agree to preside over a coalition government..." https://books.google.com/books?id=dN5V8WX5WP0C&pg=PA377
 
Have you heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?
This. Non-communist Russia would not be politically isolated and would remain allied to France (France would be more than happy to abandon alliances with Poland and Czechoslovakia if there is "normal" Russia around, way more useful ally). So any attempt by to start another Great War would end very, very quickly
 
A Jacobin Russia will face the same problems as revolutionary France but much worse, I would say Fascism becomes the new elected Government due to the ineffective Democratic Regime.

Recovery period would probably last till 1945, the economic growth could mirror Germany or more and achieve world power status by 1960. The reconquest of her lost territories somewhere in 1960-70,that could escalate to WW2.

Russia is vast in both land, problems and demography, she is proud and strong.

She takes longer to recover because she is already slow in gaining momentum democracy decreases the pace of necessary change.
 

kernals12

Banned
A Jacobin Russia will face the same problems as revolutionary France but much worse, I would say Fascism becomes the new elected Government due to the ineffective Democratic Regime.

Recovery period would probably last till 1945, the economic growth could mirror Germany or more and achieve world power status by 1960. The reconquest of her lost territories somewhere in 1960-70,that could escalate to WW2.

Russia is vast in both land, problems and demography, she is proud and strong.

She takes longer to recover because she is already slow in gaining momentum democracy decreases the pace of necessary change.
The parties leading the February Revolution were not Jacobinist, which is what the Bolsheviks were (complete with the execution of the royal family).
 
Actually, I've read that the original terms, that, the Central Powers offered the Bolsheviks were pretty generous.

Maybe the Germans thought of them as such but hardly any non-Bolshevik Russian political parties--and not all Bolsheviks--were willing to accept them. True, the territories to be detached from Russia were mostly inhabited by ethnic groups other than Great Russians, but everyone knew that what the non-Russians were to be given was not true self-determination but at best a status as German client states.
 
Let's say that Kamenev and Zinoviev have their way and instead of a coup in October there is a peaceful transfer of power to a coalition government of all the socialist parties in the soviet. The short answer is that such a government could not possibly last, because of the disagreements about the war (among other things). It was hard enough for Lenin to get the Bolsheviks united behind Brest-Litovsk. The SR's and Mensheviks would never have agreed to such a disgraceful peace--but that was the only kind of peace available. Yes, Lenin was authoritarian-minded, but as Adam Ulam notes, "...for all the years of tight discipline, for all his enormous authority, it was still hard enough for Lenin to ride herd over the Bolshevik commissars who kept disagreeing and threatening to resign at the slightest provocation. Who could believe that a government with, say, Martov in its ranks would have ever been able to agree on a simple policy, would ever have been able to stop talking? Had Lenin been Thomas Jefferson and John Stuart Mill rolled into one, it still would have been difficult for him to agree to preside over a coalition government..." https://books.google.com/books?id=dN5V8WX5WP0C&pg=PA377

"Authoritarian-minded"? That is a bit of an understatement! Total dictator is more like it. Lenin cared about Lenin and no one else. Possibly other of his top cronies, but that is all. He could have easily formed a coalition government. He would have had to make compromises but that is hardly a bad thing.
 
"Authoritarian-minded"? That is a bit of an understatement! Total dictator is more like it. Lenin cared about Lenin and no one else. Possibly other of his top cronies, but that is all. He could have easily formed a coalition government. He would have had to make compromises but that is hardly a bad thing.

You can compromise on many things, but it's hard to compromise on whether to stay in the war or not!
 
You can compromise on many things, but it's hard to compromise on whether to stay in the war or not!

Staying in the war would hardly be disastrous for Russia. When the Allies won, Russia would have a seat at the table. Outside of that, there were plenty of areas the Bolsheviks could have compromised. However, Lenin was not into compromise, he was into holding onto power at all costs and ruling over Russia as a complete dictator.
 
Staying in the war would hardly be disastrous for Russia. When the Allies won, Russia would have a seat at the table.

It was hardly clear at the time of Brest-Litovsk that the Allies would win--and even if they ultimately did, there was always the danger that the Germans would first occupy Petrograd and Moscow (which they could do without any great trouble, the Russian Imperial Army having disintegrated) and install a subservient conservative government there under someone like Krasnov as they would do with Skoropadskyi in Ukraine. Even if the Germans were later defeated, overthrowing the government they had established might not be that easy for the socialists. (It might switch sides and bid for Allied support, as Skorpoadskyi attempted in late 1918.)
 
Anyone want to take a crack at a TL with a democratic Russia and no Soviet Union?

I've considered doing so, but it would require reading too many Stalin biographies... (Stalin, you see, was one of the leaders of the pro-democracy side of the Bolsheviks, so a timeline where Lenin doesn't convince the Bolsheviks to take power by force, so he'd be a big political force on the left, especially since in TTL, the Bolshevik-Menshevik union would have gone to completion and the Left SRs wouldn't have been revolted by the authoritarianism of Leninism, and the Left SRs were the dominant political players on the White side in the civil war...)

I dunno. Maybe one day?

No Hitler, No Stalin, No Mao, No Pol Pot, No Slobodan Milosevic, No Kim Il Sung.

In fact, you may get earlier Stalin. Just not a Leninist Stalin. Which in my view is a very good thing. But it's still unlikely to be sunlight and roses.

And while Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung and Slobodan Milosevec could all easily miss their opportunities to reach the top and cause massive death and misery, there will be opportunities for other mass murderers.

You've just butterflied away the entire 20th century, my friend. Most of the conflicts since 1917 have been either caused by communism or fear of communism in one way or another. World War I (or the Great War as we'd probably call it) would be seen as the last gasp of despotism before the light of liberal democracy swept across the world whether it be Russia, Weimar Germany, Mussolini-less Italy, or Taisho Japan.

Japan is still very likely to go down the tubes, it wasn't the Bolsheviks that set them down their path of doom, it was colonialism, racism (theirs and America's), economic trouble and dysfunctional politics that set them on their path of doom.

Mussolini may not come to power without the Italian elites being afraid of a revolution. But he still would. Same for Hitler - his path to power may be harder TTL, but it's still possible.

And beware the urge to see an "end to history". It didn't happen after the fall of the Soviet Union, it won't happen if the Soviet Union never rises. People will people.

What if, the Bolsheviks decide to honor the results of the election instead of starting a coup, and Russia stays on a democratic path for the rest of the 20th century, preventing the Soviet Union from ever existing.

What would Russia, Europe, and the World be like in this scenario?

It's hard to say. There's still a good chance that Russia will have a civil war. There's a VERY high chance that Russia ends up Socialist (but democratic socialist, not run by a Leninist totalitarian state). There's even a chance that Russia ends up being socialist AND totalitarian, just through some alternative course than OTL.

It's also depends very much on whether Russia can hold on to the end of WW1. If they do, then Britain, France, Japan and the US all have an interest in seeing whatever government is in charge and staying in the war can hold on. If they don't, Russia could end up becoming quite isolated, just as OTL. If Russia has a seat at Versailles, they also get a host of benefits from being part of the new international system. But holding on after the Kerensky offensive had wiped out Russia's military strength is very, very hard. Perhaps even impossible.

Likely China would still have Sun Yatsen's revolution (which was inspired by the Russian Revolution) but if Russian Socialism remains democratic, what would become the Chinese Nationalists may stay a more socialist group, rather than splitting into the Nationalists and Communists as in OTL. In France, the Socialists are a much stronger force in the 20s. Labour is stronger in the UK. Socialism may revive after the savage WW1 repressions under Wilson (or it may not, Wilson really did savage the American left). But... What do those socialist movements become over the next 20, 50 or 100 years? It's hard to say. There's much time for butterflies.

Germany and Spain will still have the same political instability they did in OTL, as will countries like Romania and Bulgaria in all likelihood. A Nazi Germany is still possible, as is a militarist dictatorship, as is a healthy democratic Germany.

Actually, I've read that the original terms, that, the Central Powers offered the Bolsheviks were pretty generous.

It's not clear that the first terms were serious ones however, since the Germans were arguing with themselves about the final terms and if Russia is completely unable to defend itself (as it was during OTL's Brest Litovsk negotiations) then there's basically nothing to stop Germany taking whatever they wanted (indeed, even in OTL, Germany did things forbidden by the treaty, because no-one could stop them and the German army did whatever it liked at this point). (The German army wanted much more of Russia than the civilian elements of government, but basically however much of Russia gets occupied depends entirely on what the army wants to occupy.)

fasquardon
 
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