What if the Mark 71 8"/55 gun wasn't cancelled?

The biggest problem was that the ship's mission evaporated while the class was under development and then it didn't gain a new purpose until the last few years. Yes, the technical complexity and plethora of new systems was a significant factor, otherwise the US Navy might have just soldiered on with the class anyway and found them something to do. But that's not a problem solved solely by moving to iterative main guns and search radar. And conversely, if the littoral mission hadn't evaporated then the class wouldn't have been cut to three ships regardless of the technological complexity.

It's the focus on a single mission at the expense of all else that's probably my biggest problem with the class.

Do you know the story behind why it became SO specialized? My first thought is that there must have been a drastic capability shortfall to come up with such a drastic 'solution'; which then leads me to wonder what would have happened if there wasn't such a drastic capability shortfall?
 
It's the focus on a single mission at the expense of all else that's probably my biggest problem with the class.

Do you know the story behind why it became SO specialized? My first thought is that there must have been a drastic capability shortfall to come up with such a drastic 'solution'; which then leads me to wonder what would have happened if there wasn't such a drastic capability shortfall?
The Spruances needed a replacement and they had the land attack and ASW job
 
It's the focus on a single mission at the expense of all else that's probably my biggest problem with the class.

Do you know the story behind why it became SO specialized? My first thought is that there must have been a drastic capability shortfall to come up with such a drastic 'solution'; which then leads me to wonder what would have happened if there wasn't such a drastic capability shortfall?
The end of the Cold War prompted very dramatic rethinks of what the US Navy was supposed to do. No more escorting REFORGER convoys across the Atlantic. No more trying to penetrate Soviet submarine bastions. There was still expeditionary strike, and that quickly assumed even more importance. Based on Desert Storm, and various other small brushfire wars throughout the 1980s, the US Navy conclusion was that they needed to refocus towards littoral warfare and support of amphibious assaults inland. They also needed to start thinking about replacing the Spruance-class destroyers, which would reach the end of their service lives in rapid succession in the 2010s at the latest.

Thus the Zumwalt class, a dual-role ASW and land attack large littoral vessel, and one of a wide variety of concepts studied. It would provide deep strike inland with missiles, fire support from a standoff distance, and ASW cover for amphibious task forces near the shore. For survivability purposes it needed maximal stealth, hence the composite deckhouse and tumblehome hull, and enhanced self-defense AAW capabilites, hence the dual-band radar. There was also a desire to reduce manning numbers in the wake of the Peace Dividend.

Ironically, it was that focus on self-defense AAW only, which IMO was a necessary cost-reduction measure, that did the class in. In the littoral mission, shore-based antiship firepower, particularly the sensor nets needed to effectively utilize maximal missile range, had advanced and proliferated by the mid-2000s, with the Houthi missile attacks on USS Mason back in 2016 a good example of what the Navy was worrying about. The US Navy promptly rethought its amphibious doctrine for even more standoff range, and that meant the AGS suddenly couldn't provide timely fire support anymore - a problem, by the way, the Mark 71 would've shared. Worse, this was around when the Chinese naval buildup began in earnest, at which point the US Navy suddenly found itself with a geopolitical rival cranking out antiship missiles and AAW combatants with AESA radars like they were going out of style. Now they needed more AAW ships ASAP, which meant restarting Burke production, and which meant they did not want the AAW-light Zumwalts clogging up the building queue and eating up the shipbuilding budget.

Ironically, now the US Navy has a requirement for the Zumwalts again as the core of surface action groups, which are making a return as part of the distributed lethality doctrine. But with DDG-Next underway, the ship has sailed for restarting Zumwalt production.
 
I wonder if making an extended range 8" shell would have been easier than a 5" or the 155mm of the AGS even if you just used something like a Sabot round to increase range
 
I wonder if making an extended range 8" shell would have been easier than a 5" or the 155mm of the AGS even if you just used something like a Sabot round to increase range
That depends on whether the US Navy catches the Good Idea Fairy before it can get them to switch from the laser guidance of the Mark 71 to the GPS/Inertial of the ERGM and LRLAP projectiles. I'd think being able to iterate a laser guidance package to suit an extended-range projectile would be easier than developing an entirely new guidance package.
 
As I recall the USN was playing around with new High Capacity shells and also 13.4 " and 11" sabots rounds for the guns of the Iowas in the 80s and very early 90s. The few shots of the high capacity shells fired in testing from both Dahlgren and the USS Iowa reached out to a darn impressive 51,000 yards before the programs got axed with the end of the Cold War although accuracy could have been better. The 13.4" sabot was projected to reach around 70,000 yards and the 11" sabot around 100,000. Mind you how you hit anything at those kind of ranges with without some form guided shells beats me. Still with a 8" gun you can probably get 5ish" sabot rounds which is still respectable
 
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As I recall the USN was playing around with new High Capacity shells and also 13.4 " and 11" sabots rounds for the guns of the Iowas in the 80s and very early 90s. The few shots of the high capacity shells fired in testing from both Dahlgren and the USS Iowa reached out to a darn impressive 51,000 yards before the programs got axed with the end of the Cold War although accuracy could have been better. The 13.4" sabot was projected to reach around 70,000 yards and the 11" sabot around 100,000. Mind you how you hit anything at those kind of ranges with without some form guided shells beats me. Still with a 8" gun you can probably get 5ish" sabot rounds which is still respectable

I've always dreamed of Iowa's equipped with rocket assisted depleted uranium sabot rounds.

Beautiful. Just Beautiful.
 
As I recall the USN was playing around with new High Capacity shells and also 13.4 " and 11" sabots rounds for the guns of the Iowas in the 80s and very early 90s. The few shots of the high capacity shells fired in testing from both Dahlgren and the USS Iowa reached out to a darn impressive 51,000 yards before the programs got axed with the end of the Cold War although accuracy could have been better. The 13.4" sabot was projected to reach around 70,000 yards and the 11" sabot around 100,000. Mind you how you hit anything at those kind of ranges with without some form guided shells beats me. Still with a 8" gun you can probably get 5ish" sabot rounds which is still respectable
St. Paul shot several 104mm "Long Range Bombardment Ammunition" sabots in 1970; the Mk 71 could handle longer caliber shells, so improved sabots would be very feasible.
In the late 1960s the "Gunfighter" program at Indian Head Naval Ordnance Station developed Long Range Bombardment Ammunition (LRBA) projectiles. These were Arrow Shells with a body diameter of 4.125" (10.4 cm) and a fin diameter of 5.0" (12.7 cm) which were sized to be fired from 8" (20.3 cm) guns by using a sabot and obturator system. Tests with these in 1968 showed maximum ranges of 72,000 yards (66,000 m). The burster in these shells was PBX-w-106, a castable explosive. Sabot weighed 17.6 lbs. (8.0 kg) and was discarded as the projectile left the muzzle. After a test firing off Okinawa of three inert-loaded shells, USS St. Paul (CA-73) in 1970 conducted a two day bombardment mission against Viet Cong positions at ranges up to 70,000 yards (64,000 m). At the time, St. Paul was the only 8" gunned cruiser still in active service.
 
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The Zumwalts were supposed to do ASW? With only one helicopter?
Well, yes. You don't put a towed array, two hull sonars, and the most advanced surface acoustic signature reduction on the planet on a ship that's not supposed to do ASW. And for the record, they can fit two helicopters.
 
The title says it all people. What are the effects of the Mark 71 not being canceled in 1978? Does it get installed on the members of the Spurance class? Does the Burke class get the ability to swap out its 5" gun for it? Will it prevent the Zumwalt fiasco? Please discuss this and more
The Zumwalt was a fiasco as the class was reduced from 32 to just 3 and so the development costs were absorbed by just 3 hulls and the ammunition development and production halted really impacted the design.

It was a deliberately Politically made 'fiasco' in that it was a political decision (rightly or wrongly) to limit the class to 3 and end development and production of the ammunition

Therefore and my point to all the above - no, adoption of the 8" Mark 71 would not prevent a fiasco like the Zumwalt one (where the class was ordered for a particular mission and then hamstrung by the cancellation of the principle weapon system intended to arm the ships when the envisaged role appeared to disappear) - as I have every confidence in the US Governments ability coupled with the US Armaments industry to make a similar fiasco.
 
The Zumwalt was a fiasco as the class was reduced from 32 to just 3 and so the development costs were absorbed by just 3 hulls and the ammunition development and production halted really impacted the design.

It was a deliberately Politically made 'fiasco' in that it was a political decision (rightly or wrongly) to limit the class to 3 and end development and production of the ammunition

Therefore and my point to all the above - no, adoption of the 8" Mark 71 would not prevent a fiasco like the Zumwalt one (where the class was ordered for a particular mission and then hamstrung by the cancellation of the principle weapon system intended to arm the ships when the envisaged role appeared to disappear) - as I have every confidence in the US Governments ability coupled with the US Armaments industry to make a similar fiasco.

Honestly if your are looking to fill the littoral NGF role just building updated copies of the " USS Carronade".
 
I wonder if making an extended range 8" shell would have been easier than a 5" or the 155mm of the AGS even if you just used something like a Sabot round to increase range

That depends on whether the US Navy catches the Good Idea Fairy before it can get them to switch from the laser guidance of the Mark 71 to the GPS/Inertial of the ERGM and LRLAP projectiles. I'd think being able to iterate a laser guidance package to suit an extended-range projectile would be easier than developing an entirely new guidance package.

Given the Army deployed the Copperhead laser guided round in the mid-late 80s I'd think laser guidance of 8" rounds should be feasible, perhaps putting a sabot and rocket onto a Copperhead variant could do the trick.
 
I'm instantly in love with her :love:

Join the club. Cheap, low manpower requirements, quick to build, shallow draft, and 8 beautiful auto matic rotating dual tube rocket launchers firing 5 inch rockets. Each rocket launcher could fire 30 rockets a minute ( or 15 rockets per each 16 rocket tubes) for a magificent 240 5 inch rockets in a single minute.

Only took 5 months from being laid down to being launched as well.

With modern tech you could probably reduce the crew even more, extend the range of the rockets ( or go for say larger 7inch- 8 inch rockets.), make the rockets more accurate, develop rocket variants carrying mines or cluster muinitions, even develop guided rounds of various types ( like the laser guided upgrades of existing " dumb" rockets developed.)
 
Join the club. Cheap, low manpower requirements, quick to build, shallow draft, and 8 beautiful auto matic rotating dual tube rocket launchers firing 5 inch rockets. Each rocket launcher could fire 30 rockets a minute ( or 15 rockets per each 16 rocket tubes) for a magificent 240 5 inch rockets in a single minute.

Only took 5 months from being laid down to being launched as well.

With modern tech you could probably reduce the crew even more, extend the range of the rockets ( or go for say larger 7inch- 8 inch rockets.), make the rockets more accurate, develop rocket variants carrying mines or cluster muinitions, even develop guided rounds of various types ( like the laser guided upgrades of existing " dumb" rockets developed.)
Modern unit would be a modern 5" or the OPs 8" firing smarter than me ammo and then something like a multiple Brimstone/Sea Spear or similar in a VL launcher or a modern HellfireL like missile that retained a 'human in the loop' (that's how we fights the wars today) target allocation - ideal for both deliberate targeting and defence against littoral Swarm attacks and control and the ability to operate multiple UAVs for detection and targeting.
 
Modern unit would be a modern 5" or the OPs 8" firing smarter than me ammo and then something like a multiple Brimstone/Sea Spear or similar in a VL launcher or a modern HellfireL like missile that retained a 'human in the loop' (that's how we fights the wars today) target allocation - ideal for both deliberate targeting and defence against littoral Swarm attacks and control and the ability to operate multiple UAVs for detection and targeting.
Huh something like that would have taken care of the needing to murder boghammers mission requirement of the LCS program which would have resulted in a considerably better product from said program
 
Huh something like that would have taken care of the needing to murder boghammers mission requirement of the LCS program which would have resulted in a considerably better product from said program
'Boghammer' - thank you I was trying to think of the term (its a Swedish made ship that they Iranians bought that gave the name IIRC?)
 
Now I'm imagining that what became the LCS progran due to say 16 or so the modern USS Caronade equivalents being built is to divide it into a minesweeper class with decent self protection abilities and a proper replacement for the Perrys. Mind you the Constellations will be rather good but they're at least half a decade and more realistically a decade too late
 
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What happens worldwide if the US starts shipping 8 inch guns? The RN started using the Mk8 4.5" gun from 1973 and eliminated it in 1980 with the Type 22s. Would they instead maybe revamp say the 6" gun used in the Lion, Tiger and Blake and fit it to the Type 22? Would the French go for something much bigger than their 100mm? The Russians and Italians had very powerful 130mm/5" guns, but would these be seen as enough when the US had 8"?
 
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