What if the Japanese carriers at Pearl Harbor just stayed?

Really? WW2 is full of examples of individual subs doing just that to carriers. care to provide soem evidence for your statement?
"Full of examples"? Hardly. The total number of contacts can be counted on both hands. The number of successful attacks, on one, AFAIK. Evidence? Read Silent Victory for the number of times task forces were TGB. Read what he says about the "pursuit" of Shokaku: over a dozen boats deployed, none even got off a shot. It's nothing like as easy as made out here.
 

CalBear

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"Full of examples"? Hardly. The total number of contacts can be counted on both hands. The number of successful attacks, on one, AFAIK. Evidence? Read Silent Victory for the number of times task forces were TGB. Read what he says about the "pursuit" of Shokaku: over a dozen boats deployed, none even got off a shot. It's nothing like as easy as made out here.

Successful attacks by subs against Carriers?

Saratoga (twice I-76, I-26)
Wasp* (I-19)
Yorktown* (I-168)
Chuyo* (USS Sailfish)
Taiho* (USS Albacore)
Taiyo* (USS Rasher)
Unryu* (USS Redfish)
Unyo* (USS Barb)
Shokaku* (USS Cavalla)
Shinano* (USS Archerfish)
Courageous* (U-29)
Eagle* (U-73)
Ark Royal* (U-81)
Audacity* (U-751) CVE
Avenger* (U-155) CVE


*=Sunk

Considering the total number of carriers available as potential targets that is a pretty long list.
 
I think the bottom line that we that can all agree is that the Japanese attack was a RAID, not a Siege. When launching a raid, you get in, do what needs to be done (rescue, cause as much damage as possible, etc.) and get the hell out. Unless some ASB decides to give the Japanese unlimited fuel, ammo and spare parts, they're not going to stick around for too long.

Besides, even if they'd sunk the US carriers, what's the point of sticking around with the American fleet sunk?
 
Besides, even if they'd sunk the US carriers, what's the point of sticking around with the American fleet sunk?
This. They have other things to do.

I wonder if the Japanese could have landed a quick force to steal fuel on the islands? Obviously OTL the answer is "no" for they had no troops or ships to land them with, but hypothetically what land resistance would a small land-based raiding force have encountered after the first 2 waves?
 

CalBear

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This. They have other things to do.

I wonder if the Japanese could have landed a quick force to steal fuel on the islands? Obviously OTL the answer is "no" for they had no troops or ships to land them with, but hypothetically what land resistance would a small land-based raiding force have encountered after the first 2 waves?

Two Marine Defense Battalions (3rd & 4th), two U.S. Army infantry Divisions (24th & 25th) less the 299th Battalion that was detached to the other Islands, four coastal artillery regiments, four AAA regiments (3", 40mm, 20mm, .50 cal), plus the Hawaiian NG units (as well as the rest of the military force on the islands, including the AAF ground elements, with rifles and the Honolulu cops). Call it 15,000 trained men fighting from prepared positions or in positional defenses that they were trained to defend, and an addtional 15-20K fighting from scratch positions (with roughly half of these having a reasonable chance of hitting something with their rifle).
 
This. They have other things to do.

I wonder if the Japanese could have landed a quick force to steal fuel on the islands? Obviously OTL the answer is "no" for they had no troops or ships to land them with, but hypothetically what land resistance would a small land-based raiding force have encountered after the first 2 waves?

LOTS. There were two Army divisions in the islands, almost entirely on Oahu. True, they were understrength. They also raced to the beaches to set up defenses even IOTL, and had them up by dawn on the 8th. There was also a division-strength Coastal Artillery command, again almost all of it on Oahu.

Add in Marines and naval personnel at the base itself, and even getting in to destroy the fuel, much less steal it, would be virtually impossible.

I'm sure the Japanese could have stolen a few hundred gallons of gas from some gas station or something on that scale, but such an action would hardly justify the gas needed to ship the troops across the Pacific. A commando raid to destroy the Pearl Harbor tank farm would at least be good in theory, but it would take a miracle for them to get close enough to the tanks to do so. Steal the fuel? ASB.
 
i think i can put a nail in this coffin..

uhm.. if they stayed as they were in OTL .. IE the mission was planned and executed up to the point the of the landing of the second wave..

they get crushed .. Kamikaze Fleet.. big waste of resources.. actually the whole attack was dumb as planned.. hey lets piss them off and hope they give up quickly..

of course i would say what where they to do.. Invading Oahu would be uber risky to say the least..

So .. out of ammo.. out of fuel.. the fleet runs like hell and is dogged until its sunk...

Now what would have been cool was if they could have mustered 2 attacks at once that hit both perl and San Diego at the same time.. while all the while launching the rest of the plan
 
Two Marine Defense Battalions (3rd & 4th), two U.S. Army infantry Divisions (24th & 25th) less the 299th Battalion that was detached to the other Islands, four coastal artillery regiments, four AAA regiments (3", 40mm, 20mm, .50 cal), plus the Hawaiian NG units (as well as the rest of the military force on the islands, including the AAF ground elements, with rifles and the Honolulu cops). Call it 15,000 trained men fighting from prepared positions or in positional defenses that they were trained to defend, and an addtional 15-20K fighting from scratch positions (with roughly half of these having a reasonable chance of hitting something with their rifle).

LOTS. There were two Army divisions in the islands, almost entirely on Oahu. True, they were understrength. They also raced to the beaches to set up defenses even IOTL, and had them up by dawn on the 8th. There was also a division-strength Coastal Artillery command, again almost all of it on Oahu.

Add in Marines and naval personnel at the base itself, and even getting in to destroy the fuel, much less steal it, would be virtually impossible.

I'm sure the Japanese could have stolen a few hundred gallons of gas from some gas station or something on that scale, but such an action would hardly justify the gas needed to ship the troops across the Pacific. A commando raid to destroy the Pearl Harbor tank farm would at least be good in theory, but it would take a miracle for them to get close enough to the tanks to do so. Steal the fuel? ASB.
Cool, thanks guys I had no idea what was there so I appreciate the list (which is why I asked the question).
 
What really prevented the Japanese from hanging around new Hawaii after the Pearl Harbor attacks? They had a 2:1 carrier superiority over the Americans in the area and the Pearl Harbor air bases were badly hit, so why didn't they just stay and launch more strike waves for weeks afterward?

Short answer: No fuel, no ammo, no way to resupply, and land-based planes sinking them within a couple, three days.
 
It's very improbable any U.S. boats would even make contact. There were 5 boats at Lahaina Roads, but none anywhere near the Japanese launch point

Sure it's improbable...but you only know this because, well, you can go and look up where all those subs were. That's not an option for the Japanese in 1941, so they have to operate as if those subs were all in potential strike distance.

Because if they don't...one will be.
 
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