What if the Japanese battleship Nagato was reactivated and pressed into JMSDF service?

[Gillan1220]

I have been thinking about this scenario for quiet some time now. So basically at the end of the war, Japan still had a few ships such as unfinished battleships, carriers, and submarines at the shipyards at the time of the Empire's surrender to the Allies. All of these became property of the United States government. Many of these were scrapped or turned into target vessels for live fire or nuclear tests in the South Pacific.

But what-if in this alternate scenario, the U.S. does not destroy these ships and by the time China falls to Mao Zedong's communist army, these are reactivated in an earlier-established JSDF. The Nagato would then serve as the flagship of the JMSDF alongside the reactivated ships and donated landing ship tanks and patrol boats.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/cyniuw

How would Japan's East Asian neighbors react?

 

[steamboy]

A horribly obsolete man power sink that has next to no escorts and would be seen as a symbol of Imperial Japan. Unless MacArthur was even more bonkers, and insisted the Japanese keep the ship she's of no value to Japan save as a reminder of their military that just got defeated, her value is in the metal she's made of as scrap value, thats about it.

 

[Gillan1220]

A horribly obsolete man power sink that has next to no escorts and would be seen as a symbol of Imperial Japan. Unless MacArthur was even more bonkers, and insisted the Japanese keep the ship she's of no value to Japan save as a reminder of their military that just got defeated, her value is in the metal she's made of as scrap value, thats about it.

How obsolete was the Nagato along with their other ships still in dry dock? Would it be better if the U.S. donated some of their mothballed South Dakota-class battleships instead?

 

[steamboy]

Why would they give a country they just defeated a warship? They wanted to eradicate the essence of militarism in Japan and did damn well at that. Simply to have them either keep a battleship or somehow get one is ASB.

 

[Veiovis]

Even if one decides that anybody, let alone Japan, actually should have a Battleship in 1949 (which they shouldn't, at all), a nearly 30 year old hulk in poor condition is literary the worst possible choice and I can't imagine even the biggest Battleship fanboy to seriously consider it.

 

[General Tirpitz]

The JMSDF's main task to this day has been to operate in a supportive role to the USN in the region. Minesweeping and general coastal patrol are much more important things to concentrate, particularly as at this stage Japan still has very limited resources to invest in such things, and also allow the US to move its resources to other things (just like IOTL).

Why would they give a country they just defeated a warship? They wanted to eradicate the essence of militarism in Japan and did damn well at that. Simply to have them either keep a battleship or somehow get one is ASB.

To be honest, by the time China fell to the Communists, the US was already reversing its course on this. It took until the Korean War though that the policy completely reverted, after which it was mostly Japanese trying to evade American demands to build-up the country's military quicker. Having a battleship like Nagato wasn't really what they had in mind though.

 

[Gillan1220]

Why would they give a country they just defeated a warship? They wanted to eradicate the essence of militarism in Japan and did damn well at that. Simply to have them either keep a battleship or somehow get one is ASB.

Fear of communism engulfing Asia such as the fall of China to Mao and North Korea invading the South.

Even if one decides that anybody, let alone Japan, actually should have a Battleship in 1949 (which they shouldn't, at all), a nearly 30 year old hulk in poor condition is literary the worst possible choice and I can't imagine even the biggest Battleship fanboy to seriously consider it.

So South Dakota-class BB would be a much better alternative than the Nagato?

 

[steamboy]

So South Dakota-class BB would be a much better alternative than the Nagato?

Yes because the Nagato was basically a wreck that just hadn't sunk yet. But again, unless its ASB the USN is not going to give anything to Japan on the scale of a BB, because they don't want any Imperial embers to reinight.

Really this is kind of on the same scale as

"Hey there West Germany, here's a fuckton of salvaged Panthers and Tiger II's for you to reequip your armed forces with, we've even got those nice grey uniforms for you."

 

[Gillan1220]

Yes because the Nagato was basically a wreck that just hadn't sunk yet. But again, unless its ASB the USN is not going to give anything to Japan on the scale of a BB, because they don't want any Imperial embers to reinight.

Really this is kind of on the same scale as

"Hey there West Germany, here's a fuckton of salvaged Panthers and Tiger II's for you to reequip your armed forces with, we've even got those nice grey uniforms for you."

What type of ships was handed down to the pre-JMSDF and JMSDF in the 1950s?

Ironically, that would have been the situation of Germany if an Operation Unthinkable or a war in 1950 would have occurred. Even the French used the Panther post-war longer than the Germans.

 

[marathag]

Why would they give a country they just defeated a warship? They wanted to eradicate the essence of militarism in Japan and did damn well at that. Simply to have them either keep a battleship or somehow get one is ASB.

The same was wanted for Germany, yet they didn't get a 'Self Defence Force' as restricted as in Japan
The reality of the Warsaw Pact saw to that, a large Land threat, requiring an Army

The other point, is that Naval Personnel tend to be less threatening to doing a coup, than Army Personnel.

That's one of the reasons that the US saw the Navy being far less threatening to the Republic than having a large Standing Army
How militarism worked out between the old Clans in Japan, with one powerblock in Navy, and the other for Army, should be considered

 

[marathag]

"Hey there West Germany, here's a fuckton of salvaged Panthers and Tiger II's for you to reequip your armed forces with, we've even got those nice grey uniforms for you."

East Germans had almost unchanged uniforms, biggest change was the helmet and no more 'Gott Mit Uns' with the Nazi Chicken on the Belt Buckle.

And for Armor, you want reliability as well as intact factories.

France had that, allowing them to use Panthers, that were hardly more reliable than the War, and the Czechs that had Hanomag Halftracks

Germany was without a lot of intact heavy industry

 

[Korlan]

If for some reason the US wanted Japan to rearm, Nagato is probably the last ship that Japan would want to keep operationnal.

There are a few new carriers (Unryu-class), cruisers (like the Tone, Agano, and Oyodo classes) and submarines (I-201 class) that were either intact, not completed, or sunk in harbor and salvageable at the end of the war.

And that is if the US absolutely want Japan to use Japanese equipment instead of selling them surplus US Navy ships (either barely used or brand new, just do not cancel them (*) )

(*) at the end of the war, dozens of ships were cancelled after construction had started and were broken up on the construction slips.

 

[Gillan1220]

If for some reason the US wanted Japan to rearm, Nagato is probably the last ship that Japan would want to keep operationnal.

There are a few new carriers (Unryu-class), cruisers (like the Tone, Agano, and Oyodo classes) and submarines (I-201 class) that were either intact, not completed, or sunk in harbor and salvageable at the end of the war.

And that is if the US absolutely want Japan to use Japanese equipment instead of selling them surplus US Navy ships (either barely used or brand new, just do not cancel them (*) )

(*) at the end of the war, dozens of ships were cancelled after construction had started and were broken up on the construction slips.

Would those Unryu-class, Tone-class, Agano-class, and Oyodo-class be of proper era for the Korean War?

The US would probably use Japanese equipment for studying.

 

[fastmongrel]

biggest change was the helmet

I believe that was a wartime economy design that like the British MkII helmet could be stamped out of a single sheet of steel. It could have become standard issue if the war had gone on longer.

 

[Korlan]

Would those Unryu-class, Tone-class, Agano-class, and Oyodo-class be of proper era for the Korean War?

Given those classes were the last designed by the Japanese and a few of those ships were not completed by 1945 : planned commissionning dates 1946-47, they should be (more or less) state of the art in 1950.

 

[Machiavelli Jr]

What type of ships was handed down to the pre-JMSDF and JMSDF in the 1950s?

Scads of minesweepers very early on, then from '54 a single-figure number of WW2 DD refitted for the ASW role, then from '56 they started building their own (Japanese hulls filled with American kit, initially).

 

[Father Maryland]

A horribly obsolete man power sink that has next to no escorts and would be seen as a symbol of Imperial Japan. Unless MacArthur was even more bonkers, and insisted the Japanese keep the ship she's of no value to Japan save as a reminder of their military that just got defeated, her value is in the metal she's made of as scrap value, thats about it.

For the most part the Japanese proccess of scrapping their own WW2 era ships was actually a money loser apparently. Something to do with the incredibly low prices for scrap post war and the Japanese having to import the expensive accetylene needed for the cutting torches.

Ironically the US seizing all the floating ships was probably a financial aid to the immediate post war Japanese.

 

[CV12Hornet]

What type of ships was handed down to the pre-JMSDF and JMSDF in the 1950s?

Ironically, that would have been the situation of Germany if an Operation Unthinkable or a war in 1950 would have occurred. Even the French used the Panther post-war longer than the Germans.

Two Fletcher’s, two Gleaves, two Cannon, 18 Tacoma, a Gato, four landing ships, and a large number of landing fire support vessels.

 

[Gillan1220]

Scads of minesweepers very early on, then from '54 a single-figure number of WW2 DD refitted for the ASW role, then from '56 they started building their own (Japanese hulls filled with American kit, initially).

I read too LSTs were donated to the Japanese then had to be brought back by the Americans during the Incheon landings in September 1950.

Also, the ROC-N had the Yukikaze renamed to the ROCS Tan Yang and refitted with American weapons/

 

[RousseauX]

Why would they give a country they just defeated a warship? They wanted to eradicate the essence of militarism in Japan and did damn well at that. Simply to have them either keep a battleship or somehow get one is ASB.

Just keep the ship around in limbo until the Korea War and all of a sudden "well we have to rearm the japanese/germans to keep the reds from conquering the world"

you know kinda of what happened otl

also obviously rename it something else if it brings too much bad memories