What if the Italian AirForce Built 1000's of P.108 b

The Italian airforce built 1000's of Piaggio P.108B bomber .
And used this Aircraft in the Battle of Britian and in the USSR.
Just some facts on this aircraft are Crew of seven
powerplant four 1500hp
Dimensions Wing Span 32.00m length 22.29m height 6.00m
weight empty 17325kg max loaded 29885kg
Armament eight 12.7 mm machine guns max bomb load 3500kg
Max speed 430km/h cruise speed 320km/h range 2495-3520km
The Italians only built about 180 of these in are time line.
How could this Aircraft changed the war for the Axis if they were build in the 1000's instead of under just under 200 .
Would the RAF in 1940 or 41 stopped 100 plane raids of these aircraft .
 
Ward said:
The Italian airforce built 1000's of Piaggio P.108B bomber .
And used this Aircraft in the Battle of Britian and in the USSR.
Just some facts on this aircraft are Crew of seven
powerplant four 1500hp
Dimensions Wing Span 32.00m length 22.29m height 6.00m
weight empty 17325kg max loaded 29885kg
Armament eight 12.7 mm machine guns max bomb load 3500kg
Max speed 430km/h cruise speed 320km/h range 2495-3520km
The Italians only built about 180 of these in are time line.
How could this Aircraft changed the war for the Axis if they were build in the 1000's instead of under just under 200 .
Would the RAF in 1940 or 41 stopped 100 plane raids of these aircraft .

It might have made a lot of difference to the Battle of Britain. The bombers with 8 50-caliber machine guns would have been more heavily armed than RAF fighters (which were armed with 6 or 8 30-caliber machine guns). The speed of the bomber was also about as good as the fighters it would have been facing in 1940. What might have been interesting is if the Germans had license-built this bomber instead of the Heinkel HE-111s and Dorniers they were flying in 1940.
 
If somehow you could manage to get a couple of thousand of these to pop into existance just as the Battle of Britain starts it will of cause change history greatly.
This site here states the year as being 1940 (this genrally seems to be the year of entry into service), given that it will take quite a while to work up to mass production and to train up a large number of crews you are not going to see this aircraft in wide spread service until mid to late 1941.
If you try to start production of this aircraft earlier the RAF will presumably respond by rushing 20mm cannon armed varients of the Spitfire into service.
Also looking at the image of this aircraft on the aforementioned website, I can only see 2 turrets or mountings for MGs, only one of which appears to be able to fire reward and that one is positioned on the bottom of the fuslage (i.e. only two guns can possibly be brought to bear on an attacker coming in from behind)... starting to look not quite so formidable...
 
Cockroach said:
If somehow you could manage to get a couple of thousand of these to pop into existance just as the Battle of Britain starts it will of cause change history greatly.
This site here states the year as being 1940 (this genrally seems to be the year of entry into service), given that it will take quite a while to work up to mass production and to train up a large number of crews you are not going to see this aircraft in wide spread service until mid to late 1941.
If you try to start production of this aircraft earlier the RAF will presumably respond by rushing 20mm cannon armed varients of the Spitfire into service.
Also looking at the image of this aircraft on the aforementioned website, I can only see 2 turrets or mountings for MGs, only one of which appears to be able to fire reward and that one is positioned on the bottom of the fuslage (i.e. only two guns can possibly be brought to bear on an attacker coming in from behind)... starting to look not quite so formidable...

The below info is from http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=879.

The Piaggio P.108 B was the only heavy four-engine bomber to see service with the Regia Aeronautica during World War Two. Too few were built to play a significant role in the war, only 163 P.108 Bs having been built. The P.108 B was an all-metal cantilever low-wing monoplane with an retractable under-carriage, driven by four 1,350 hp Piaggio P.XII radial engines. The first prototype was finished in 10/39 and had a very advanced defensive armament for its day of two 7.7 mm machine waist guns, a 12.7 mm machine gun in the lower turret and a similar weapon in the nose turret, and two remotely-controlled twin gun turrets in outer engine nacelles. The first Allied bomber with a similar armament was the Boeing B 29, developed four years later. The bomb load of the Piaggio comprised of 7,700 lbs, all carried internally in the bomb bay.

The only unit of the Regia Aeronautica ever to fly the P.108 B was the 274th Long-Range Bombardment Group. This unit was formed in 5/41 around the first machines that came off the assembly lines. The training of the crews lasted far longer than anticipated and in 6/42 the 274th became operational. The most spectacular raids with the P. 108 B were flown in 10/42 when several night attacks against Gibraltar were undertaken from Sardinia. Several versions were derived from the P. 108 B: such as the P.108A, which had a 102 mm anti-shipping gun in the nose; the P.108C airliner and the P.108T transport. The latter two versions had a larger diameter fuselage for transporting passengers or freight. They were hardly used by the Regia Aeronautica, the main user being the German Luftwaffe. In 9/43, after the Italian armistice, the Luftwaffe had captured all fifteen P.108 Cs and P.108 Ts built. They were used at the Russian front, as part of Luftflotte 2, where they performed sterling duties, among others during the evacuation of the Crimea in 1944.

Article by JDG


Specifications

Model FIAT BR.20 Cicogna
Horsepower 550 hp
Engine Piaggio P.IIX RC 35
Max Speed 158 MPH
Range 2,033 - 2,750 Km
Wingspan 32 m
Height 7.70m
Weight 17,320 Kg
Max Weight 29,885 Kg
Length 22.92m
Crew 6
Payload 3,500 Kg
Armament 6 x 12,7 mm + 1 x 12,7 mm + 2 x 7.7 mm

Special thanks to regiamarina.net for P108 Specifications.

Article Sources:

David Mondey, Axis Aircraft of World War II, Chancellor Press, 1996.
Chris Dunning, Courage Alone: The Italian Airforce 1940-1943, Hikoki Publications, 1998.
William Green, Warplanes of the Second World War (10 vol.), Doubleday, 1960-68.
Jonathon Thompson, Italian Civil and Military Aircraft 1930-45, Aero, 1960.
Enzo Angelucci & Paolo Matricardi, World War II Airplanes (2 vol.), Rand McNally, 1978.
Hans Werner Neulen, In the Skies of Europe: Air Forces Allied to the Luftwaffe, 1939-45, Crowood Press, 2000.

Given the fact that the prototype flew in October 1939, it would definitely have been possible for a large number to have been built by August/September 1940...especially if they are being built in both Italy and (under license) in Germany. Sounds like a pretty good plane...obviously the armament was upgraded even more from the prototype version described above when the production model came about. A large flight of these in an analog to the American B-17 "Box formation' could have put a lot of lead into the air to repel British fighters.
 
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Ok, I must admit I did under estimate this aircraft, but I didn't exactly have much infomation at the start...
Gine so mass production would have been possible by the Battle of Britain...
 
The question here is not the exact specifications of the plane but whether any scheme would have been undertaken. Considering what a shambles Italian industry and the system of arms procurement was, we're in ASB territory. The technical branch of the airforce didn't have the final choice over prototypes, that was the prerogative of the Direzione Generale which was staffed by non-technical types and seems to have been full of political appointees in the pockets of aircraft manufacturers.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Its an interesting question - were Fascist arms procurements far worse than Communist ones on the one hand, and democratic ones on the other? As Fascism was a blend of state with big business, one can certainly see that in order to keep the balance big business exercises an influence over the government in proportion to the influence going the other way.

In Communist states, which to be sure means the USSR in this period, there were rival factories and boards of designers, but the political element was not there. Instead perhaps is a relative conservatism until time of emergency, coming from what roots ?

And in democratic countries? Well, you had the bloody Faery Battle so Britain was not adverse to buying hundreds of crap aircraft! But once strategic needs could be considered, were they more able to turn industry the way they wanted it to?

Sheesh, sorry for my grammar this morning, not fully woken up

Grey Wolf
 
I think Redbeard's comments in the "Bomber Harris" thread are relevant here. If a major industrial power like Germany could have ill afforded to build 1000 4-engined heavy bombers and maintain it's navy and army at OTL levels, then it is virtually impossible Italy could. Given Mussolini's evident desire to establish some type of Mediterranean Empire, the big fleet Italy built is a must. Perhaps he could scrimp more on his army, but this would leave Italy completely at the mercy in Europe to France and untrustworthy allies like Hitler.
 
zoomar said:
I think Redbeard's comments in the "Bomber Harris" thread are relevant here. If a major industrial power like Germany could have ill afforded to build 1000 4-engined heavy bombers and maintain it's navy and army at OTL levels, then it is virtually impossible Italy could. Given Mussolini's evident desire to establish some type of Mediterranean Empire, the big fleet Italy built is a must. Perhaps he could scrimp more on his army, but this would leave Italy completely at the mercy in Europe to France and untrustworthy allies like Hitler.

It is certainly true that Italy...BY ITSELF...could never have fielded a force of 1,000 of these bombers. But a combined effort by Italy and Germany (working under license) might very well have been able to do so. And to affect the Battle of Britain, a force of 1,000 is not really needed. Half that would do quite nicely.

Germany fielded a force of about 1300 bombers during the Battle of Britain, not including Dive Bombers, of which the vast majority were Heinkel HE111 and Dornier DO17. If the resources devoted to those obsolescent bombers had been devoted to Piaggio P-108s (perhaps even scrapping the existing bombers to get materials to build the Piaggios), there is no reason (at least from a materials standpoint) that a force of 500-700 P108s could not have been built. This still leaves Germany with all of it's dive bombers and JU88 bombers to support the Army in battle. And if Italy contributes another 100-200 (about what they produced in OTL), then you very nearly have the 1,000.

This new bomber force is much more survivable, and carries a much bigger bomb load than what Germany had in OTL. The Battle of Britain just got a lot harder for Britain.
 
robertp6165 said:
It is certainly true that Italy...BY ITSELF...could never have fielded a force of 1,000 of these bombers. But a combined effort by Italy and Germany (working under license) might very well have been able to do so. And to affect the Battle of Britain, a force of 1,000 is not really needed. Half that would do quite nicely.

Germany fielded a force of about 1300 bombers during the Battle of Britain, not including Dive Bombers, of which the vast majority were Heinkel HE111 and Dornier DO17. If the resources devoted to those obsolescent bombers had been devoted to Piaggio P-108s (perhaps even scrapping the existing bombers to get materials to build the Piaggios), there is no reason (at least from a materials standpoint) that a force of 500-700 P108s could not have been built. This still leaves Germany with all of it's dive bombers and JU88 bombers to support the Army in battle. And if Italy contributes another 100-200 (about what they produced in OTL), then you very nearly have the 1,000.

This new bomber force is much more survivable, and carries a much bigger bomb load than what Germany had in OTL. The Battle of Britain just got a lot harder for Britain.

Britian moves its fighters northward out of range of German fighters and fights on.
 
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