What if the Greeks succeeded reestablishing the Byzantine Empire?

Mookie

Banned
The Ottomans had broadly tolerant policies toward its Christian populace and had an immense military force to back these policies. A revanchist Greece has... neither.



I hope I'm not appropriating another member's words too forcefully when I point out that this is both wrong and impossible?

Its wrong but its what hapened. In Serbia when it rebeled in early 19th century, and then again, when it expanded. In Greece too when it got independence. All Greeks were offered to convert and stay,not convert and leave, or stay not convert and die.
 
Ah, but we're talking about the entirety of the Balkans, not just Serbia or just Greece. I don't think that the Greeks had the manpower or resources to perform such an undertaking on a region which vastly outweighs their own homeland in population.
 

Mookie

Banned
Ah, but we're talking about the entirety of the Balkans, not just Serbia or just Greece. I don't think that the Greeks had the manpower or resources to perform such an undertaking on a region which vastly outweighs their own homeland in population.

But that hapened everywhere. Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria. Christians would help Christians against the Turks no matter what.
 
If we assume that the decidedly non-Hellenic Balkan peoples take kindly to their new overlords, sure. I think in an age of rising nationalism, they won't be much happier under an Orthodox subjugator than they were under a Muslim one.
 
But that hapened everywhere. Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria. Christians would help Christians against the Turks no matter what.

Didn't happen. Occasional opportunism, perhaps. But never in building a united non national christian state.
 

Mookie

Banned
If we assume that the decidedly non-Hellenic Balkan peoples take kindly to their new overlords, sure. I think in an age of rising nationalism, they won't be much happier under an Orthodox subjugator than they were under a Muslim one.

They probably wouldnt. But would still help them get rid of the Turks. Its been 200 years and people here still desire to "kill the turks"
 

Mookie

Banned
Didn't happen. Occasional opportunism, perhaps. But never in building a united non national christian state.

pokrstavanje_0044.jpg


Devetog marta iste godine, okupacioni vojni sud osuđuje na smrt 25 građana Gusinja koje je odredio kapetan Dragović zvani “Đuro”. U drugoj grupi iz Gusinja i okoline strijeljano je 29 Bošnjaka i Albananca, a najveća grupa koja je odbila pokrštavanje, negdje preko sedam stotina (700) odvedeni su u bukagijama i konopcima na Previji i strijeljani, “mušketani”…

Da bi zastrašili plavsko-gusinjski živalj okupacione vlasti 5.marta 1913., strijeljaju dvanaest plavskih prvaka na Racini: Mulla Sado Musića, Demo Markovića, Osman-agu Šehović, braću Hajra i Junuza Omeragića, braću Aga i Emina Ferovića, Šeća Ferovića, Beća Alimulića, Maza i Haka Hadžimušovića.

On march 5th 1913, the 12 champions of the people there, were shoot, in order to scare Plav and Gusinje people into submission: Mulla Sado Musić, Demo Marković, Osman-agu Šehović, brothers Hajro i Junuz Omeragić, brothers Aga i Emin Ferović, Šeća Ferović, Beća Alimulić, Maza i Haka Hadžimušović

On march 9th of that year (1913) provisionary military court sentenced to death a group of 25 citizens of Plav and Gusinje specified by captain Dragovic - aka "Djuro". In the seccond group 29 Bosniaks and Albanians were shout, as well as a large group of people who refused to convert (700) were taken in chains and ropes to previja and shot.

Džafer beže ludi sine, zlo mi dovede'... Kolona pljunu na Avra i na bivšeg hodžu, odbi pokrštavanje i prihvati smrt... Nastao je opšti pokolj, oko 700 ljudi bude pogubljeno' (...)

Dzafer bey you crazy son of a.... you brought evil upon us (Dzafer bey surendered to Montenegrin forces) The people there spat upon them and their former imam who converted, refused conversion and accepted death. There was a carnage, 700 people were killed

Prisilno su kršćeni svi muslimani od staraca do novorodenčadi. Prota Đorde Šekularac izjavio je jednom novinaru srpske Politike, da je pokršteno preko 12.000 muslimana plavsko-gusinjskog kraja.

Svim nasilno pokrštenim su davali pravoslavna imena, i morali su imati kuma kojeg im je određivao pop, a bilo je i onih koji su ga morali sami tražiti kod komšija pravoslavaca. Ako je pokršteni nađen na đžadi ili sokaku, pitan je od okupacionih vlasti, vojnika, popova i drugih; kako mu je ime. Onaj koji pravoslavno ime nije upamtio bio je premlaćen ili pak ubijen.

Everyone they were able to reach was forced to convert, from elders to babies. Priest Dordje Sekularac said to a news reporter for magazine "Serb politics" that 12 000 muslims of Plav and Gusinje were converted.

All of them were forced to take christian name and had to have a Godfather which was given to them by the priest. When asked on the streets for the name they had to give their christian name, and if they forgot it they were beaten or killed, depending on circuimstances.

Few eyewitness accounts

Starina devedestih godina, hadži Adem pošao u čarsiju kupit duvana, ne misleći da će iko dići ruku na njega starca, ali naiđe na patrolu crnogorske vojske. Kada su ga ugledali kao da im je došao naručen, jer su čekali da pokažu svoje junaštvo nad nejakim nemoćnim. Stanu ga vući za bradu, tući nogama i rukama, tako da je starina uzdahnuo pod njihovim batinama.

Elder, Hajji Adem (90) came to the city to buy tobacco, not thinking anything will happen. He came across the montenegrin patrol and when asked for name didnt know his christian name, They beat him until he died.


Hadži Medo Medunjanin bio u dobrim komšijskim odnosima sa Simonom. Čim je crnogorska vojska ušla Medo se skloni na tavan da bi izbjegao odmazdu crnogorske vojske, ustvari Vasojevića, koji su klali ne samo odrasle ljude nego i djecu. Bio je na tavanu neko vrijeme, pa eto njemu komšije Simeona koji ga pozva iz hodnika njegove kuće. Hadži Medo čim ču glas svog komšije, pomisli da dolazi spas, pa se odazove, ali pri silasku sa tavana čim ga vidje komšija Simeon, nanišai i opali puškom u njega. Tako se završi dugogodišnje prijateljstvo i komšijstvo Simeona sa hadži Medom.

Hajji Medo Medunjanin was in good neighbourly relations to his neighbour Simon. When Montenegrin army arrived Medo hid in Simon's house since the soldiers killed everyone. He was in the attic for some time after which Simon came to him calling him. Thinking its safe he came down and Simon shot him.

Osman iz sela Budovica pobjegao u šumu da ga ne krste, ali kad ču zato Staniša, sa grupom naoružanih komšija pravoslavaca i plemenika, pođe u Budovicu da zapale Osmanu kuću. Kad ih viđe Osmanova žena izađe pred komšijama pravoslavcima, sa kolijevkom u kojoj je bila beba, njen sin Muzlija, tražeći tim činom od Staniše kumstvo, koje je bilo sveto u tim krajevima, da joj nebi zapalili kiću. Staniša nogom udari kolijevku u majčinoj ruci, koja odletje preko plota, pa kobrljajući se ode niz brijeg. Nije oklijevao Staniša na vapaje komšija, nego zapali Osmanu kuću i sve u njoj.

Osman from the village of Budovica ran into the forrest to escape conversion, but when Stanisha (neighbour) heard of that the came with a group of armed orthodox neighbours to Osman's house to burn it down. Osman's wife who saw them came in front of them calling for "kumstvo" (to convert her and her baby). Stanisha hit her and threw the baby down the hill, forcing the woman in the house and setting it ablaze with everyone in it.



These are just few accounts of what was happening there in 1913, so you can imagine what was going on before that.
 
It would be a serious game-changer in European politics. The creation of a large Russian-friendly state with Constantinople and much of the Balkan peninsula would put certain great powers on high alert - Britain and Austria, for one. Russia would be viewed as overall a much bigger threat.

As for internal politics, they're probably going to get very chaotic and messy, even if Russia doesn't try to push its own autocratic model of government onto "Byzantium".

The Bulgarians, Serbs and Orthodox Albanians would initially welcome the new state as liberation. But, depending on how heavy-handed the Greeks turn out to be with their insistence on Hellenic cultural, linguistic and church dominance, relations between the Christians could quickly sour. Austria and the other powers hostile to Russia will also support and inflame the emerging nationalist sentiments of non-Greek Christians, trying to carve up the Russian sphere of influence.

The local Muslims are screwed in short-term, as no doubt some will die during the war itself, and many will flee or be expelled to Anatolia. In the long term, there's no telling whether the ruling clique will adopt the tolerant ideals of Rigas Feraios or move in the general direction of blind revanchism, but some kind of a basic accommodation with the Muslims will have to be reached, for logistical if no other reasons.
 
The Ottomans had broadly tolerant policies toward its Christian populace and had an immense military force to back these policies. A revanchist Greece has... neither.

There are no reason to assume that an Empire where the Greeks were politically dominant need to be less tolerant than the Ottomans. In fact, it would be politically unwise not to be tolerant, as it would lead to problems to keep the Empire united. About the military force, they would have needed an ally, for instance Russia, to take over the Empire, but once they had taken control of it, they would also have conquered the Ottoman military force. The main problem would probably if they could trust their new ally. It is likely that Russia would make the area a part of their own empire. For this reason, Britain and other great powers would probably interfer to stop it.
 
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