What if the French had Build the Char G1 tank

So what if France had started to build the Char G1 tank in mid 1939 and had 600 of them by April 1940 and assigned them to the DCR Divs .
Could they of Stoped the German invasion with these units .

300px-France-RenaultG1R.jpg
 
A single type of tank, or any weapon for that matter is usually not going to be enough to sway any battle.

Also whatever unit is given these is probably going to get sent north and be cut off anyways.
 
A single type of tank, or any weapon for that matter is usually not going to be enough to sway any battle.

Also whatever unit is given these is probably going to get sent north and be cut off anyways.

Would they of been cut off in the north as they cut there way though the German armd divs .
 
Most existing Allied tanks were already superior one on one to the German units.

Doctrine of operational use was the problem.

Anyway it doesn't look much better than the Char B or Matilda II tanks.
 

Redbeard

Banned
I think the real challenge here is having 600 ready by April 40.

But if that somehow happens, I actually think it may change history. I know I'm usually the first to say that technology in itself is of limited influence, but 600 tanks each being tremedously superior to anything the world has seen yet and practically immune to German guns is likely to have an influence in a campaign as closely run as the Battle of France. Even if the French obey their usual doctrine and don't deploy large tank units, even a single batalion or company in the flank of a German trust is likely to cause havoc and panic. Once Hitler hears of unstoppable French tanks he is likely to order an advance stop, and although that saves the German spearheads from being cut off, it also allows the French army time to find its cohesion. And once that happens the Germans are doomed. You can compare the 1940 French army to concrete - as long as it is wet it is just a pulp you can form with your bare hands, but once it is given time to harden, it will resist even shellfire.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Isnt that like saying could the Germans have won WW2 if theyd produced the Maus

The Char was equally massive was it not.
 
Isnt that like saying could the Germans have won WW2 if theyd produced the Maus

The Char was equally massive was it not.

No. The G1 was a 30t design. At leat the R version, which is the one pictured. The others were lighter in the 20-30 t range.

You're thinking of the FCM F1, I think. THAT was a 140t monster.

EDIT : Having the G1R available would be easy; just avoid the bureacratic infioghting which stopped work on it for 2 years. However, as said, it wouldnh't change the french GHQ thinking. OTOH, it would help with the armored coordination as each G1R was equipped with a radio - as opposed to only command tanks having them. SO, maybe some help, but not too likely to change everything unless they are available at the right position ( or are used to free other tanks, which become available in the right position ). I have a TL in the work which have the first dozens G1R available in May 40, but the PoD is in 36 and involves a change in french doctrines and organisation as a consequence of the actions of a certain colonel
 
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wormyguy

Banned
The Wikipedia article makes it sound like it's superior to the T-34, although I'm not sure how accurate that is. 600 tanks will slow the German advance slowly, but doesn't fix the fundamental problem with the French leadership, and one must remember that the French tanks were superior to the German ones anyway. The real butterflies are with Barbarossa, as the Germans will be able to tell from captured examples that they are far superior to their own tanks, and may cause them to significantly update their designs before the invasion of Russia.
 
Hmm, if the bureacratic infighting is avoided with the G1 tanks, can it be avoided with other parts of French rearmament? That should change the French campaign.

With 600 tanks available, I'm assuming the French have 2 or more additional tank divisions available. Does that mean 2 more divisions advance into Belgium, or are they deployed back in France? Back in France, and behind the front line, they could be used to counter a breakthrough.

If significant numbers of G1's are available in late 1939, does France feel confident enough to move into Germany?

No. The G1 was a 30t design. At leat the R version, which is the one pictured. The others were lighter in the 20-30 t range.

You're thinking of the FCM F1, I think. THAT was a 140t monster.

EDIT : Having the G1R available would be easy; just avoid the bureacratic infioghting which stopped work on it for 2 years. However, as said, it wouldnh't change the french GHQ thinking. OTOH, it would help with the armored coordination as each G1R was equipped with a radio - as opposed to only command tanks having them. SO, maybe some help, but not too likely to change everything unless they are available at the right position ( or are used to free other tanks, which become available in the right position ). I have a TL in the work which have the first dozens G1R available in May 40, but the PoD is in 36 and involves a change in french doctrines and organisation as a consequence of the actions of a certain colonel
 
Hmm, if the bureacratic infighting is avoided with the G1 tanks, can it be avoided with other parts of French rearmament? That should change the French campaign.

That depends on why it is avoided.

If it is a result of Renault better political skills, it will affect the G1, and maybe a few other projects, but not much more.

If it is the result of a more strengthfull inspecteur des forces blindees, this will only affect armors and support but has already a significant effect ( self-propelled guns, armored infantry vehicules, trucks, oil ... )

If this is the result of a general effort to avoid waste and bureaucracy, then the effects are huge. To begin with, fremch fighters will be at least equal to the german ones.

This is really a choice.

With 600 tanks available, I'm assuming the French have 2 or more additional tank divisions available. Does that mean 2 more divisions advance into Belgium, or are they deployed back in France? Back in France, and behind the front line, they could be used to counter a breakthrough.

I'd say that with two more divisions, at least one ( and likely both ) will be assigned to the role foreseen by french doctrine, which was not covered because of not having enough armored divisions OTL. Stationned some distance behind the Maginot line, in order to be ready to react to any german breakthrough. In the Region of Metz. Ideally positionned to intercept the logistic train of the Pz Division after the Ardennes Percee, in other words. The effect is again Huge. Even if the Allies cannot close the pocket.

If significant numbers of G1's are available in late 1939, does France feel confident enough to move into Germany?

Unfortunately, I think that's ASB unless you manage a general brain transplant of GHQ and a lot of politicians, or you have a PoD in the 20s.

Also, having 600 G1 in may 40 is one thing, having them in late 39 is really pushing plausibility
 
This reasoning is flawed imo insofar as it is based on deployment of extra tank divs. An extra two divs of Char B types or Matildas would have been just as critical if placed at the right point on the German flank at the right time.

The type of tank is irrelevant so long as they are superior to the German types, which the existing types certainly were.
 
This reasoning is flawed imo insofar as it is based on deployment of extra tank divs. An extra two divs of Char B types or Matildas would have been just as critical if placed at the right point on the German flank at the right time.

The type of tank is irrelevant so long as they are superior to the German types, which the existing types certainly were.

Yes, but G1R avoid the main drawbacks of the B1.

They have a two man turret ( three man for later versions ), all tanks have radio and their main armamant is in the turret ( and better beside ).

In addition, they also have better armor, speed and range.

So while two divisions of B1 in the right position would indeed be enough to stop the Ardennes percee, one of G1R, even if slightly out of position would do even better.

But that is not the point. The point is. If the french had 600 more 'medium' tanks, they would have placed at least a division in the 'right ' position. That division could have been G1R or another, it doesn't really matter. The point is that the existance of these G1R get a french armored division in position to counter attack. Which means the percee doesn't succeed in surrounding the french troops in Belgium, which means these can retreat in good order and the front is stabilised. AT which point the Pz Divisions discover just how better than PzIII or IV the G1R is ( let alone I, II, 35 or 38 ) and the prototypes for the Tiger ( DW2 at that point, IIRC ) are rushed into production as is ( leaving one OTL iteration aside )
 
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As others have pointed out, doctrine was more of a problem than quality/number of tanks for the Allies.

Also, while several people have mentioned the "extra" tank divisions France would gain, nobody seems to have considered the production that would be lost from other areas as a result of building so many new tanks thanks to taking up factory production, usage of limited resources, lost production due to having to re-tool assembly lines & re-train workers, etc.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The G1 would have been a help, but it wouldn't have changed the end result, except to give the Germans some good captured tanks and a better manufacturing plant.. Poor leadership, insufficient strategic planning, and pitiful tactics, would have overcome any weapon system. The Char C, even the Bis was better than the German armor it faced. Made no difference at all.

The G was too much of a jump in design, with too many good, even revolutionary, features, for the French industrial base to handle. France's manufacturing methods was not the efficient German or robust American versions, they were, at best, somewhat muddled. To change that would require a POD back into the 19th Century, one that would radically alter French society itself.

France's WW II problems were not weapons related.
 
While not mentioned in the original post, I think it is acceptable to assume that something else happened in France to make these tanks possible. 600 G1's, even 60, means that there were improvements in French armament production over OTL. It is possible that the G1's production took the place of other important production. But I think something else occurred.

I don't know if 2 extra tank divisions would be possible with France's mobilization plan. What about the divisions involved in the counterattack that DeGaulle was associated with?

Or what if the G1's replaced the FT-17's in some French divisions? Or the G1's replace the tanks that replace the FT-17's?
 
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