What if the Dutch Empire stays intact after Napoleon?

[Friedrich der Große]

During and after the Napoleonic Wars, the Dutch gave Ceylon, Cape Colony, Guiana and some cities in India to the British. But what if they got all these colony’s back. As a result, the Netherlands remains a (middle)great power, which I want to have.

So, I thought that the best POD is that stadholder William V was more capable so there wouldn’t be a Patriot Revolution in the Dutch Republic. As a result, the Dutch Patriots won’t go to France after the failure of the revolution, so there wouldn’t be a Batavian Republic. This means that the Dutch are more in the Allied camp in the French revolutionary wars, which will mean that the Dutch will be a reliable British ally.

Concluding, this will all mean that the British will give back all Dutch colony’s after the Wars.

So, how will this effect on the Congress of Vienna, United Kingdom of the Netherlands, Belgian Revolution, 19th century in Europe and, maybe, but that’s too complicated I think, the 20th century.

Excuse me for my English, sorry. This is my first post.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Welcome to the board.

As I understand it, the fact that these colonies belonged to the VOC rather than the Stadhouder or the nation was the issue. The VOC was haemorhaging money/bankrupt and thus couldn't properly support their colonies. So perhaps an earlier bankruptcy for them?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

@Jürgen @Parma @pompejus @Osman Aga

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-south-africa-remains-dutch.508707/

 

[Evil Crusader]

Welcome to the board!

Usually, you need to go a bit before the act with a POD to successfully prevent it. Even if William V was competent, the reasons behind the English takeover are already present and need only a pretext which will eventually come; in fact, WIlliam's skill doesn't necessarily prevent the OTL shenaningans to ostensibly protect Dutch interests from enemy France happening and a Dutch nation that actively warred on the mainland may well find itself even poorer and less capable of resisting.

And even if the Dutch somehow did gain everything back, that doesn't necessarily mean they'd be able to play (middle)great power; as it stood OTL, they were on a downturn since quite a bit of time so you'd need way more work than 'monarch's good, all is fixed' to get them to play a strong role again.

So, how will this effect on the Congress of Vienna, United Kingdom of the Netherlands, Belgian Revolution, 19th century in Europe and, maybe, but that’s too complicated I think, the 20th century.

Hard to tell, because of the above - the situation would be so different that you'd better start from a single scenario, as proposed by the other poster.

 

[Friedrich der Große]

Welcome to the board!

Usually, you need to go a bit before the act with a POD to successfully prevent it. Even if William V was competent, the reasons behind the English takeover are already present and need only a pretext which will eventually come; in fact, WIlliam's skill doesn't necessarily prevent the OTL shenaningans to ostensibly protect Dutch interests from enemy France happening and a Dutch nation that actively warred on the mainland may well find itself even poorer and less capable of resisting.

And even if the Dutch somehow did gain everything back, that doesn't necessarily mean they'd be able to play (middle)great power; as it stood OTL, they were on a downturn since quite a bit of time so you'd need way more work than 'monarch's good, all is fixed' to get them to play a strong role again.



Hard to tell, because of the above - the situation would be so different that you'd better start from a single scenario, as proposed by the other poster.

Thank you very much! So then, My single scenario is: What if the Netherlands got back all there colony’s from before the French revolutionary wars.

 

[Friedrich der Große]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-south-africa-remains-dutch.508707/

Yeah off course the ‘South Africa remains Dutch scenario’, is a part of my scenario, but in my scenario, the Dutch also kept Ceylon and Guyana.

 

[Evil Crusader]

Thank you very much! So then, My single scenario is: What if the Netherlands got back all there colony’s from before the French revolutionary wars.

That they get sniped anyways when the first distraction comes, because the British are in a much better situation and still have all the interest in obtaining them.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

That they get sniped anyways when the first distraction comes, because the British are in a much better situation and still have all the interest in obtaining them.

I wouldn't be so sure. Britain could just as easily set up posts in either Walvis Bay, Strandfontein (modern Port Elizabeth) or Natal. South Africa's really not that important until the gold/diamonds are found.

That said, Britain wasn't a lot of people's favourite dance partner in the 19th century, and the Dutch stayed out of any major European conflict. So, assuming the Dutch are smart and continue to avoid any major conflict, Britain just "randomly" swiping the Dutch colonies isn't really going to go down well with Dutch allies (most likely ones being Prussia and Russia).

Major conflicts between 1815 and 1900 where Britain can swipe colonies from the Dutch (and use the excuse à la Napoleonic Wars) are actually not a lot (AFAIK). Biggest European wars like Crimea, 7 Weeks, Franco-Prussian etc, had no colonial component, so what would Britain say "oh, I just decided to help myself to Indonesia because, you know, I heard Russia was sending a fleet to attack prisoners I don't really care about in Australia?" (this actually happened in the 1870s where apparently the Russians were going to go to Australia. More likely that Napoleon would attack England via the North Pole IMO). While Prussia, France, Russia and Austria might not care about the Dutch getting Indonesia back, they do care about Britain getting it to start with.

Ergo, Britannia might be in a "much better situation", but just look at how practically the whole world came down on the Boer side in the Second Anglo-Boer War. Again, Prussia, Russia etc don't really give a fig about the Boers, but just allowing Britain to expand at the expense of an ally (the Dutch) makes them look bad.

Alternatively, the Dutch and the British could get along well (for instance, Princess Charlotte marries William II), and nobody's taking anybody's colonies (after all, even under William and Mary, there were "Dutch" and "English" colonies, not "our" colonies).

 

[Parma]

During and after the Napoleonic Wars, the Dutch gave Ceylon, Cape Colony, Guiana and some cities in India to the British. But what if they got all these colony’s back. As a result, the Netherlands remains a (middle)great power, which I want to have.

So, I thought that the best POD is that stadholder William V was more capable so there wouldn’t be a Patriot Revolution in the Dutch Republic. As a result, the Dutch Patriots won’t go to France after the failure of the revolution, so there wouldn’t be a Batavian Republic. This means that the Dutch are more in the Allied camp in the French revolutionary wars, which will mean that the Dutch will be a reliable British ally.

Concluding, this will all mean that the British will give back all Dutch colony’s after the Wars.

So, how will this effect on the Congress of Vienna, United Kingdom of the Netherlands, Belgian Revolution, 19th century in Europe and, maybe, but that’s too complicated I think, the 20th century.

Excuse me for my English, sorry. This is my first post.

There a few possibilities.
But a capable Stadholder William V does not win this colonies. He was very incompetent. The Patriots were willing to reorganise and reform the Republic. The Republic declined in an oliarchy and corruption and nepotism were endemic.
A better Partiot movement, in other words, the Orange Nassau's are removed from the Republic might even had a better change. However this still will be too late to regain Ceylon or Guyana.
My best gues is a better first half of the 18th century.
In 1740 it was already mentioned to the directors of the VOC to sent more pastors to the Cape Colony in order to guide the population and bring them on the "right path". An other option was of course to abollish the feudal system at the Cape by the VOC.
At the same time Ceylon could be won by playing out the two pretenders of the Throne of Candy in order to bring also the inland of Ceylon under VOC rule. This didn't happen and was done by the British, during the French occupation of the Republic which cost the British a lot of lives and more important a lot of monney. Since they invested a lot in Ceylon they would never return it. Guyana's plantantions on the rivers Berbice and Demara were run by British companies who feared the rturn of the missmanagement by the WIC and there for made a succesful lobby to be annexed by the British.
An other possibility is a surviving Willem George Frederik van Oranje-Nassau the younger brother of the future King William I.
Unfortunatly he died from complications of a shot wound in 1799(wounded in 1793 around Meenen when revolutionairy French armies invaded the Austrian Netherlands) while fighting for the Austrians on the Italian front.
This young men was deeply in love whith Princess Mary of Hannover daugther of King George V of Great Brittain. And she was in love of him. Suppose he surved and are allowed to marry each other, this might give a foot between several doors to get some of the colonies back. May be the Cape, since the only value was that it was half way India or Indonesia.
Last option is a Dutch Republic who could avoid at least one of the French - Dutch wars; the Dutch war or the Nine Years war.

 

[funnyhat]

During and after the Napoleonic Wars, the Dutch gave Ceylon, Cape Colony, Guiana and some cities in India to the British. But what if they got all these colony’s back. As a result, the Netherlands remains a (middle)great power, which I want to have.

I'm not sure that having more colonies can make the Netherlands more of a power. Its fundamental problem is that it is a smaller country than Germany, France and the UK. Ruling more people on the other side of the globe does not matter that much if your army cannot withstand an invasion from your neighbor.

The way to really make the Dutch stronger is to give them more European territory, but that needs to happen much earlier than 1815.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

The way to really make the Dutch stronger is to give them more European territory, but that needs to happen much earlier than 1815.

And therein lies the crux, IIRC, because the Dutch didn't actually want more territory. Particularly territory that had Catholics. How the prince of Orange felt about this matter was another matter

 

[Osman Aga]

During and after the Napoleonic Wars, the Dutch gave Ceylon, Cape Colony, Guiana and some cities in India to the British. But what if they got all these colony’s back. As a result, the Netherlands remains a (middle)great power, which I want to have.

So, I thought that the best POD is that stadholder William V was more capable so there wouldn’t be a Patriot Revolution in the Dutch Republic. As a result, the Dutch Patriots won’t go to France after the failure of the revolution, so there wouldn’t be a Batavian Republic. This means that the Dutch are more in the Allied camp in the French revolutionary wars, which will mean that the Dutch will be a reliable British ally.

Concluding, this will all mean that the British will give back all Dutch colony’s after the Wars.

So, how will this effect on the Congress of Vienna, United Kingdom of the Netherlands, Belgian Revolution, 19th century in Europe and, maybe, but that’s too complicated I think, the 20th century.

Excuse me for my English, sorry. This is my first post.

The Dutch would be more than pleased.

The Dutch will remain more a respectable European State than, Spain or Italy for example, comparable with Portugal but also more. That is, if the Dutch remaining in control over the Cape, Guyana, Ceylon etc does not influence Spain for the better.

I still see the Dutch trading away their Indian possessions in favor the British possession in the East Indies.

South Africa has more of a Dutch character. It will become like a dominion of the Netherlands, with more self rule at some point in the 19th century, especially with increased European Protestant immigration.

 

[ranoncles]

The main problem is that Britain wanted those colonies. That is a difficult hurdle to jump.

A possible solution would be to have a general desire during the Vienna Congress to create a mid-sized power north of France to keep it contained. Just adding Belgium and the Netherlands together is not considered a viable solution by the diplomats, the new country also needs a firm colonial underpinning to provide wealth and native soldiers to form a credible deterrence and thus Britain reluctantly hands back the Dutch colonies.

The problem for the Netherlands was that it was too weak to withstand even a minor French threat on its own for much of the previous century. In the early horse and musket period, it generally had enough money to buy mercenaries and fight a defensive war based on fortresses to make France think twice but warfare had changed. By the time of the Congress of Vienna, mass infantry armies was the name of the game and the Netherlands had declined financially as the British usurped its maritime and financial supremacy.

Creating a strong Netherlands (but not too strong to challenge Britain or Prussia) would neatly cordon off France after the Napoleonic Wars with Britain off its coast, Netherlands to the North, Prussia and Bavaria to the East and Austria across the Italian border…..

 

[Parma]

The main problem is that Britain wanted those colonies. That is a difficult hurdle to jump.

A possible solution would be to have a general desire during the Vienna Congress to create a mid-sized power north of France to keep it contained. Just adding Belgium and the Netherlands together is not considered a viable solution by the diplomats, the new country also needs a firm colonial underpinning to provide wealth and native soldiers to form a credible deterrence and thus Britain reluctantly hands back the Dutch colonies.

The problem for the Netherlands was that it was too weak to withstand even a minor French threat on its own for much of the previous century. In the early horse and musket period, it generally had enough money to buy mercenaries and fight a defensive war based on fortresses to make France think twice but warfare had changed. By the time of the Congress of Vienna, mass infantry armies was the name of the game and the Netherlands had declined financially as the British usurped its maritime and financial supremacy.

Creating a strong Netherlands (but not too strong to challenge Britain or Prussia) would neatly cordon off France after the Napoleonic Wars with Britain off its coast, Netherlands to the North, Prussia and Bavaria to the East and Austria across the Italian border…..

Agian you are combining two separate cases together. A strong mid sized state North of France to keep this country incheck ahs nothing to do with overseas posessions. The latter are in this time, for nearly all European countries, nothing more than so called sugar flint colonies. American Spain and Portugual exempt.
If Great brittian did not invest so much in "pacifying" Ceylon there is no reson not to give it back and only hold the trade forts on the Indian mainland, even in return of a compensation in the form a a sum of money.
The same can be said for Guyana, Berbice and Demara. If the WIC was a sensible ruler or if the new Kingdom of the Netherlands could guaranty decent government ship in these colonies the lobby of British planters could fail.
Regarding the Cape,the British kept it in return for a large sum. Cash which was desperatly needed in the new country which was looted by Napoleon. Alternative the British could give it back in return for hard consessions for British merchant and Royal Navy ships. Remember in 1814 the Cape was nothing more than a stop over station, surounded by an arrid region called the Karoo.

 

[ranoncles]

Not sure what your point is here, Parma?

The OP wants the Netherlands to retain its colonies while I think we all agree Britain wants to keep its grubby little hands on them. And not just because of some sugar farms. Everyone expected great wealth and strategic advantages from their colonies, even if often disappointed.

If you go with the idea of creating a reasonable buffer nation in the region, the Netherlands (plus Belgium) will never be a credible opponent for France based on their post Napoleonic size and wealth. The only way to keep France in check and prevent it seizing Belgium again in that situation is with threats of British and/or Prussian intervention. And that opens a different can of worms because such interventions are not that easily arranged. Diplomatic conditions change, Britain might not have a sizeable army available post 1815 etc.

Much easier to have the Netherlands be a decent mid-sized power capable of making it a bit of a fight instead of a walkover which would change France’s calculations and make a French land grab that much less likely. And that will require additional income. Extracting it from colonies might not be that easy but how else is the Netherlands to fund a decent sized army? Permanent subsidies from Britain will never be accepted by the British or the Dutch as it would reduce the Dutch to vassal status.

If you have a better idea how diplomats in Vienna in 1814 would create a viable mid-sized kingdom (instead of the OTL Dutch-Belgium Kingdom) in the low countries, I’d love to hear it.

 

[Parma]

Not sure what your point is here, Parma?

The OP wants the Netherlands to retain its colonies while I think we all agree Britain wants to keep its grubby little hands on them. And not just because of some sugar farms. Everyone expected great wealth and strategic advantages from their colonies, even if often disappointed.

If you go with the idea of creating a reasonable buffer nation in the region, the Netherlands (plus Belgium) will never be a credible opponent for France based on their post Napoleonic size and wealth. The only way to keep France in check and prevent it seizing Belgium again in that situation is with threats of British and/or Prussian intervention. And that opens a different can of worms because such interventions are not that easily arranged. Diplomatic conditions change, Britain might not have a sizeable army available post 1815 etc.

Much easier to have the Netherlands be a decent mid-sized power capable of making it a bit of a fight instead of a walkover which would change France’s calculations and make a French land grab that much less likely. And that will require additional income. Extracting it from colonies might not be that easy but how else is the Netherlands to fund a decent sized army? Permanent subsidies from Britain will never be accepted by the British or the Dutch as it would reduce the Dutch to vassal status.

If you have a better idea how diplomats in Vienna in 1814 would create a viable mid-sized kingdom (instead of the OTL Dutch-Belgium Kingdom) in the low countries, I’d love to hear it.

The point is that the combination of the former Dutch republic and the Austrian Netherlands is as separate thing. It was an idea made up by the Great Powers of Russia, Habsburg and Prussia, with support of Great Brittian.
The idea that this new buffer state need to ahve overseas possessions is a separate one. It is not regarded as a n important one since Prussia, Austria Hungary and Russia did not had any colonies, (except Prussia)this does not mean that the Netherlands did not want to have all their former overses trade post and colonies back. And Russia, Prussia and the Habsburg could help to persuade Great Brittian to give them back.
So it depent on the diplomatic presure and support of Russia Austria Hungary and Prussia to give all overses possesions back to the Netherlands.

 

[Parma]

All is given back in1814, minus some trade forts on the Indian mainland:
- Ceylon will develop during the 19th century as one of the yewels of the colonial empire, the exploration will be from early 19th century be very succesfull even more than under British rule. While the exploration and development of the DEI will be comparable slower as in OTL.
- Guyana, Berbice and Demara will develop as Suriname without any difference. During the 19th century the Netherlnads will be confronted with an agressive Venzuela regarding the border of Guyana.
- The Cape will be the only true population colony, most likely will extend in size due to Trekkers followed by Dutch state institutions from whihc the Trekkers try to exape, in a sot of perpentual motion. Most likely Namibia will be part of this Cape colony. Uncertain if a Dutch South Africa will extend up to OTL Trnavaal or further.
-Goldcoast could be transfor in a plantation colony...or not.

Unslikely if this overseas empire will have any effect on a succesful Belgian revolt. Maybe an even larger overseas market will make a counter revolt, pro Orange in Belgium succesful if this revolt will happen or will be succesfull since this is an other theater.