What if the British took Guadeloupe and Martinique as well as Canada after the Seven Years War

[VaultJumper]

You are stuck on wanting Britain to get the island but not understanding that Britain also wAnted France Tl give up other territory France continued to control.

Britain got France to give that territory because they got the islands back. You keep the island French not going to give Britain back Menorca or transfer Florida and Louisiana to Spain.

You can say what ever you want but you cannot force France to give you everything you got iOTL and still keep the island. Negotiations do not work that way. Don’t care what you think but Britain did not have a gun to France head. They had advantage but did not occupy France.

So stop saying we take it too. Unless this ASB then you might as well say France going to give us Haiti and Britany.

Not possible. What are you going to give France for them to abandon North America that still had French soldiers ready to fight or Menorca that already repulsed one British attack and able to defend itself.

Tell me something not just fantasy.

the negotiation field is not any where close to even. GB went with a softer deal to try to save face, not that it did, at least that is what my research has turned up. GB did not have to be as nice to France as they were. France wasn't really in the position to say no to the treaty to pairs especially if Spain said yes because they lost the war they were defeated in all fronts. All I am saying is with a different person in charge of negation the terms could have been harsher towards France. GB could have demanded that France leave Menorca because that's how peace treaties work when you loose a war, to the victor goes the spoils. France got lucky it could have lost more land then it did. Because Prussia would be marching to France, they failed in Portugal, they lost control of the seas what could they have done if they wanted to keep Menorca.

 

[Lusitania]

the negotiation field is not any where close to even GB went with a softer deal to try to save face not that it did at leastthat is what my research has turned up. GB did not have to be as nice to France as they were France wasn't really in the position to say no to the treaty to pairs especially if Spain said yes because they lost the war they were defeated in all fronts. All I am saying is with a different person in charge of negation the terms could have been harsher towards France GB could have demanded that France leave Menorca because that's how peace treaties work when you loose a war to the victor goes the spoils. France got lucky it could have lost more land then it did. Because Prussia would be marching to France they failed in Portugal they lost control of the seas what could they have done if they wanted to keep Menorca.

Sorry but that is fantasy. Britain wanted France out of North America and got them to transfer it to Spain.

Negotiations are when you trade one thing to another. What you are stating is Britain is going to send the French and Spanish demands. The French and Spanish are not going to accept the demands. what was Britain going to do if France said no, invade New France, take over French India, occupy French Caribbean. Oh hold on they were already doing that. So what is Britain going to do to get more than they already control? I tell you nothing. They can keep the Caribbean and all of French India and Africa plus New France. Fine they control that. But you not going to force the French or Spanish to sign.

Again we talking about negotiations not demands. There was no unconditional surrender here. That is when you set your demands here is negotiations. Want to keep your precious islands go ahead I do not say no. want to keep everything you conquered like Pitt wanted go ahead. want France to give you Menorca and transfer all their remaining North American territory to Spain. NO BLOODY WAY.....

I keep telling you, if you want everything IOTL plus the island then continue fighting. Defeat the French in rest of North America and capture Menorca otherwise it is just a fantasy idea.

 

[Analytical Engine]

the negotiation field is not any where close to even. GB went with a softer deal to try to save face, not that it did, at least that is what my research has turned up. GB did not have to be as nice to France as they were. France wasn't really in the position to say no to the treaty to pairs especially if Spain said yes because they lost the war they were defeated in all fronts. All I am saying is with a different person in charge of negation the terms could have been harsher towards France. GB could have demanded that France leave Menorca because that's how peace treaties work when you loose a war, to the victor goes the spoils. France got lucky it could have lost more land then it did. Because Prussia would be marching to France, they failed in Portugal, they lost control of the seas what could they have done if they wanted to keep Menorca.

As @Lusitania keeps telling you (and as I said earlier) - this is not how diplomacy works in the 18th century. You cannot just demand everything you want - you need to either occupy it yourself, take back whatever territory your enemy is occupying, or trade something that you hold for it. That is how it was done. This isn't like EU4 diplomacy.

Even at the end of the Napoleonic Wars, France was still left with some colonies - and this was a France that had most of Europe against it at one point or another. Could the UK have taken all of its colonies - sure. However, that means that the other powers will want things in compensation. Taking too much from France would probably have led the French to start another war later on to take it back. Alternatively, it could have led to another power becoming overly dominant in Europe, which would freak out the other powers.

The important thing here is to preserve the balance of power as much as possible. If one side gets too strong, expect alliances to form against them.

 

[unprincipled peter]

I'm still siding with VaultJumper. It was a one sided victory. It's not quite as cut and dried as 'we take what we want', but it's a lot closer to that than the diplomacy angle. Britain gave back the sugar islands primarily because of domestic sugar industry lobbying. sure, the diplomacy thing played a part. It's not fantasy to say Britain could have gotten more out of the deal, and that the sugar islands were on the table as part of that more. The French were beaten that badly, and were that desperate for peace.

Any more 'discussion' at this point is simply arguing 'is to'/'is not', so I'm out. The direction this thread has taken is the worst part of this board. It's a possible WI that some would rather argue is impossible than to discuss the WI. Happens all the time. Sometimes, the WI is absurd. While acknowledging that there were very valid reasons OTL went as it did, this is NOT an absurd WI. Perhaps not likely, but not absurd.

 

[Lusitania]

I'm still siding with VaultJumper. It was a one sided victory. It's not quite as cut and dried as 'we take what we want', but it's a lot closer to that than the diplomacy angle. Britain gave back the sugar islands primarily because of domestic sugar industry lobbying. sure, the diplomacy thing played a part. It's not fantasy to say Britain could have gotten more out of the deal, and that the sugar islands were on the table as part of that more. The French were beaten that badly, and were that desperate for peace.

Any more 'discussion' at this point is simply arguing 'is to'/'is not', so I'm out. The direction this thread has taken is the worst part of this board. It's a possible WI that some would rather argue is impossible than to discuss the WI. Happens all the time. Sometimes, the WI is absurd. While acknowledging that there were very valid reasons OTL went as it did, this is NOT an absurd WI. Perhaps not likely, but not absurd.

Look I was of the opinion that if Britain had wanted to take the position and demand the islands it could of. Yes Britain could of taken in the peace negotiations. But this is the pre1900 section and not the ASB, therefore it has to be real.

For Britain to take the islands it would not of been able to force France to return Menorca. That was impossible plus it would also not be possible to convince France to trade territory with Spain to prevent France to still have territory in North America.

If you can tell us how the realistic negotiations would of played out please let us know. But make it real not fantasy.

PS I even stated Britain could of kept every French colony /possession it controlled at end of war. France was in no position to demand them back. BUT Britain was in no position to demand additional concessions from France.

 

[funnyhat]

I'm still siding with VaultJumper. It was a one sided victory. It's not quite as cut and dried as 'we take what we want', but it's a lot closer to that than the diplomacy angle. Britain gave back the sugar islands primarily because of domestic sugar industry lobbying. sure, the diplomacy thing played a part. It's not fantasy to say Britain could have gotten more out of the deal, and that the sugar islands were on the table as part of that more. The French were beaten that badly, and were that desperate for peace.

They had to give back something to get Menorca. They are not going to get it back and keep Martinique/Guadeloupe.

By the standards of the time they kept a lot, anyway. Compare France giving up the Austrian Netherlands in the previous treaty.

 

[VaultJumper]

As @Lusitania keeps telling you (and as I said earlier) - this is not how diplomacy works in the 18th century. You cannot just demand everything you want - you need to either occupy it yourself, take back whatever territory your enemy is occupying, or trade something that you hold for it. That is how it was done. This isn't like EU4 diplomacy.

Even at the end of the Napoleonic Wars, France was still left with some colonies - and this was a France that had most of Europe against it at one point or another. Could the UK have taken all of its colonies - sure. However, that means that the other powers will want things in compensation. Taking too much from France would probably have led the French to start another war later on to take it back. Alternatively, it could have led to another power becoming overly dominant in Europe, which would freak out the other powers.

The important thing here is to preserve the balance of power as much as possible. If one side gets too strong, expect alliances to form against them.

all I am saying with a different negotiator the treaty could have been harsher especially with Pitt in power, because Bute did not want to antagonize France or Spain that's the reason why GB was so nice not just the balance Of power.

 

[Lusitania]

all I am saying with a different negotiator the treaty could have been harsher especially with Pitt in power, because Bute did not want to antagonize France or Spain that's the reason why GB was so nice not just the balance Of power.

Yes a different negotiator could of, we do not dispute that. When Pitt was foreign minister he formulated a plan to strip France of all its colonies. The British were able to accomplish a great portion of that with 90% of the French colonies in British hands but in doing so the British also lost Menorca. During the war the British were able to accomplish what Pitt wanted by the British capturing the French colonies in North America, Caribbean, Africa and India. But at end of war France still controlled Menorca and still had holdings in North America.

So how does the tough British negotiator get the French to give up the rest of the north America continent and return Menorca without receiving anything in return. A tough negotiator could of demanded everything the British had captured which is what Pitt wanted but how would he demand what they had not captured when the strategy used was to give the French two very valuable territories: Access to the Grandbanks (by leaving the French with two islands off of Newfoundland) and the Caribbean islands. The British returned French Africa because the British did not place any value in it, and in India French were allowed to stay but the French had been declawed and was a toothless and clawless tiger with no way of protecting itself or expand.

So what are the British going to do to as you stipulated by taking away Canada, grandbanks, take away the Caribbean islands and still get rest of what it got IOTL. Being tough has nothing to do with it. Yes never mind what rest of Europe thinks or that France be pissed off they were already and Europe was already not happy at Britain's strength. But we still have not explained how you force France to give up two prize jewels (Grand Banks and Caribbean) PLUS get them to give up territory they controlled without giving them anything in return.

 

[VaultJumper]

Yes a different negotiator could of, we do not dispute that. When Pitt was foreign minister he formulated a plan to strip France of all its colonies. The British were able to accomplish a great portion of that with 90% of the French colonies in British hands but in doing so the British also lost Menorca. During the war the British were able to accomplish what Pitt wanted by the British capturing the French colonies in North America, Caribbean, Africa and India. But at end of war France still controlled Menorca and still had holdings in North America.

So how does the tough British negotiator get the French to give up the rest of the north America continent and return Menorca without receiving anything in return. A tough negotiator could of demanded everything the British had captured which is what Pitt wanted but how would he demand what they had not captured when the strategy used was to give the French two very valuable territories: Access to the Grandbanks (by leaving the French with two islands off of Newfoundland) and the Caribbean islands. The British returned French Africa because the British did not place any value in it, and in India French were allowed to stay but the French had been declawed and was a toothless and clawless tiger with no way of protecting itself or expand.

So what are the British going to do to as you stipulated by taking away Canada, grandbanks, take away the Caribbean islands and still get rest of what it got IOTL. Being tough has nothing to do with it. Yes never mind what rest of Europe thinks or that France be pissed off they were already and Europe was already not happy at Britain's strength. But we still have not explained how you force France to give up two prize jewels (Grand Banks and Caribbean) PLUS get them to give up territory they controlled without giving them anything in return.

how good they keep with the British from doing what they wanted? what forces could they use to keep it and GB was on the verge of bankruptcies but France was in even worse Shape also their navy was out of action same with Spain's. The Portuguese Front was safely ending on the British side, Austria and Prussia were stalemated, Indian was firmly under British control same with Eastern North America, Havana, Western Cuba and Manila were under British Occupation, the French had lost important West African colonies to GB which further hurts France's economy. The British also never even sent an expedition to reclaim Menorca so we don't know what would have happened if they tried but could the French or Spanish Navies stop the British from trying? What could Have France done to stop GB especially if Spain accepts a separate peace agreeable to them. The main things that held GB back was who they had in charge at the time and threat of bankruptcy.

 

[Lusitania]

Why do you not modify your WI, you can state that a tougher negotiator under the direction of Pitts demands France give up the Caribbean islands, Canada and Grand Banks and all territory captured by Britain.

France keeps Haiti as only Caribbean colony and French Louisiana. As part of the "negotiations" the British would "suggest that the French trade Florida and Menorca to Spain for say rest of Hispaniola island. Now we have the premise of negotiations, we can even state that Spain says no and France offers it French Louisiana which the Spanish agree.

Now Britain has just reduced France to one colony Haiti and removed France from North America. Britain would see Spain as weaker adversary and would rather Menorca be in Spanish hands than in French hands.

 

[Lusitania]

how good they keep with the British from doing what they wanted? what forces could they use to keep it and GB was on the verge of bankruptcies but France was in even worse Shape also their navy was out of action same with Spain's. The Portuguese Front was safely ending on the British side, Austria and Prussia were stalemated, Indian was firmly under British control same with Eastern North America, Havana, Western Cuba and Manila were under British Occupation, the French had lost important West African colonies to GB which further hurts France's economy. The British also never even sent an expedition to reclaim Menorca so we don't know what would have happened if they tried but could the French or Spanish Navies stop the British from trying? What could Have France done to stop GB especially if Spain accepts a separate peace agreeable to them. The main things that held GB back was who they had in charge at the time and threat of bankruptcy.

See my point above, but for the British can demand stuff they did not control not possible but I gave you a premise to get 90% of what you had indicated and leave Britain stronger and more powerful. At least for 10 years lol.

 

[VaultJumper]

Why do you not modify your WI, you can state that a tougher negotiator under the direction of Pitts demands France give up the Caribbean islands, Canada and Grand Banks and all territory captured by Britain.

France keeps Haiti as only Caribbean colony and French Louisiana. As part of the "negotiations" the British would "suggest that the French trade Florida and Menorca to Spain for say rest of Hispaniola island. Now we have the premise of negotiations, we can even state that Spain says no and France offers it French Louisiana which the Spanish agree.

Now Britain has just reduced France to one colony Haiti and removed France from North America. Britain would see Spain as weaker adversary and would rather Menorca be in Spanish hands than in French hands.

fair enough but the French didn't have any colonies in Florida at the time right? I thought the Spanish ended that when they massacred the French in Florida in the 16th century. Also how much would GB not loosing Menorca effect GB position at the bargaining table?

 

[Lusitania]

fair enough but the French didn't have any colonies in Florida at the time right? I thought the Spanish ended that when they massacred the French in Florida in the 16th century. Also how much would GB not loosing Menorca effect GB position at the bargaining table?

They had captured part of Florida (or I believe controlled West Florida pan handle.

As for Menorca I and others have expressed our opinion that you would need to give them something they want. They captured it from Britain and would be holding it to bargain with. So make an offer they want.

 

[VaultJumper]

They had captured part of Florida (or I believe controlled West Florida pan handle.

As for Menorca I and others have expressed our opinion that you would need to give them something they want. They captured it from Britain and would be holding it to bargain with. So make an offer they want.

I really couldn't find anything about french Florida past the 16th century so I just assumed that it ended what I meant by not loosing Menorca was the British didn't loose it in the beginning of the war and was curious about how you think it would effect the treaty of Pairs.

 

[Lusitania]

I really couldn't find anything about french Florida past the 16th century so I just assumed that it ended what I meant by not loosing Menorca was the British didn't loose it in the beginning of the war and was curious about how you think it would effect the treaty of Pairs.

Ok the British only had so much resources, ships and men. You can’t say they not loose it. Well maybe french don’t capture it but send more men to another theatre that affects the outcome there.

If you want to make Britain stronger go ahead or France weaker.

The removal of Menorca means France has one less bargaining chip. How you horse trade between France and Spain to get France out of North America is a good question because you can only kick a person so much when they down.

You keeping take everything from France unless you willing to extend war and Britain was tired and wanted peace.there was no magic wand to make things happen.

You are adamant about Menorca that now you are changing the outcome of war. Two major battles were fought on the island. British can’t keep it with the same troops and resources.

 

[Gunner's_Quadrant]

France held territory east of the Mississippi River that extended to the Perdido River, that was considered part of French Louisiana Territory. This area was transferred to the British as part of the Treaty of Paris. Also as part of thehe Spanish gave up their colony of Florida to regain Cuba which had been captured by the British. The British then readjusted the old Florida colony into two new colonies, East Florida and West Florida. West Florida included the old French territories east of the Mississippi along with the portion of old Spanish Florida west of the Apalachicola River.

I think this is where the confusion is arising.

 

[VaultJumper]

Ok the British only had so much resources, ships and men. You can’t say they not loose it. Well maybe french don’t capture it but send more men to another theatre that affects the outcome there.

If you want to make Britain stronger go ahead or France weaker.

The removal of Menorca means France has one less bargaining chip. How you horse trade between France and Spain to get France out of North America is a good question because you can only kick a person so much when they down.

You keeping take everything from France unless you willing to extend war and Britain was tired and wanted peace.there was no magic wand to make things happen.

You are adamant about Menorca that now you are changing the outcome of war. Two major battles were fought on the island. British can’t keep it with the same troppw and resources.

the British only lost the navel battle because of the confusion of orders because of signaling technology. Lets say the orders weren't confused (for want of a nail right?) the British could have won the navel battle near Minorca (also we have been spelling the island name wrong) ,or at least not have been so utterly defeated to get the admiral in charge was executed. Which would have preempted a land invasion of the island. Granted the French could have tried again but let's say the war goes similarly to how it goes in OTL except that that the British don't loose control of Minorca. If they never lost control of Minorca why wouldn't they try to take more land from the French even with Bute in charge? What do you think they would do instead of taking take at least one or two more islands in the Caribbean that they already occupied i.e Martinique/Guadeloupe? Because they pretty much got what they wanted from every where else in the world expect maybe Goree and I don't think Spain would loose Cuba or the Philippines or really get anything different out the treaty of pairs then it did in our timelim On other important note you brought where do you think those 15,000 french troops go it would still be pretty early in the war they could go any help Austria, got to reinforce North America and the Caribbean, maybe to India or send some troops to secure the African colonies? Maybe a mix of all of the above?

 

[VaultJumper]

France held territory east of the Mississippi River that extended to the Perdido River, that was considered part of French Louisiana Territory. This area was transferred to the British as part of the Treaty of Paris. Also as part of thehe Spanish gave up their colony of Florida to regain Cuba which had been captured by the British. The British then readjusted the old Florida colony into two new colonies, East Florida and West Florida. West Florida included the old French territories east of the Mississippi along with the portion of old Spanish Florida west of the Apalachicola River.

I think this is where the confusion is arising.

thank you that clears that a lot.

 

[Lusitania]

the British only lost the navel battle because of the confusion of orders because of signaling technology. Lets say the orders weren't confused (for want of a nail right?) the British could have won the navel battle near Minorca (also we have been spelling the island name wrong) ,or at least not have been so utterly defeated to get the admiral in charge was executed. Which would have preempted a land invasion of the island. Granted the French could have tried again but let's say the war goes similarly to how it goes in OTL except that that the British don't loose control of Minorca. If they never lost control of Minorca why wouldn't they try to take more land from the French even with Bute in charge? What do you think they would do instead of taking take at least one or two more islands in the Caribbean that they already occupied i.e Martinique/Guadeloupe? Because they pretty much got what they wanted from every where else in the world expect maybe Goree and I don't think Spain would loose Cuba or the Philippines or really get anything different out the treaty of pairs then it did in our timelim On other important note you brought where do you think those 15,000 french troops go it would still be pretty early in the war they could go any help Austria, got to reinforce North America and the Caribbean, maybe to India or send some troops to secure the African colonies? Maybe a mix of all of the above?

What ever I already explained the butterfly effect and need for the British to have something to entice the French to sign a peace treaty giving u what was needed to achieve a peace and get French Spanish to trade territory.

You still going on your ASB WI. That is fine. In fantasy anything is possible but not in real life.

I give up.

 

[VaultJumper]

What ever I already explained the butterfly effect and need for the British to have something to entice the French to sign a peace treaty giving u what was needed to achieve a peace and get French Spanish to trade territory.

You still going on your ASB WI. That is fine. In fantasy anything is possible but not in real life.

I give up.

If this ASB then everything on this website is ASB. I have given possibly pods, a change in leadership and/or a different outcome of a navel battle, for a timeline where the only difference in the treaty of Pairs is that GB keeps Martinique and Guadeloupe. Am I misunderstanding what Martinique/Guadeloupe mean are they more then just two Islands granted highly profitable Islands in the Caribbean? France would still keep Haiti and the other Caribbean Islands they own they would just loose Martinique and Guadeloupe and not be completely kicked out of the Caribbean. I know about the horse trading and the balance power but would the course of the war have to change drastically in GB favors in order for GB to get these two islands? Also thank for still talking to me after you said you had given up, I appreciate it because you have given me an opportunity expand my knowledge of the Seven Years War.