What if the British took Guadeloupe and Martinique as well as Canada after the Seven Years War

[unprincipled peter]

Also would the diplomatic consequences be that much then OTL because Great Britain was hated by Europe even with the softer peace deal.

This has been commented on here, and in the history books. Britain attempted to 'look good' through the soft peace, but after dumping Austria for Prussia, then leaving Prussia to fend for itself, and thrashing France/Spain, there was no real chance for Britain to have friends left.

 

[VaultJumper]

This has been commented on here, and in the history books. Britain attempted to 'look good' through the soft peace, but after dumping Austria for Prussia, then leaving Prussia to fend for itself, and thrashing France/Spain, there was no real chance for Britain to have friends left.

so basically they could taken all of Frances colonial empire and not suffered that much diplomatic consequences?

 

[Lusitania]

a change in government means different goals and fears so its very important just look at the change between LBJ and Nixon. Pitt's ambition was to take all of France colonial empire, I personally don't think that would be wise but defiantly possible if the dominoes fall right, although I struggle to think how they could hold on to it even with heavy handed tactics in the Caribbean because of the economic, and military realities of conquering that land especially Haiti, because they almost did in OTL look at France's colonial empire before and after the Seven Years War. I do think if Pitt stayed in power it would have affect the peace deal if the events off the Seven Years War stayed the same and doubly so if Great Britain didn't loose Menorca which is possible if orders hadn't gotten confused. Also would the diplomatic consequences be that much then OTL because Great Britain was hated by Europe even with the softer peace deal.

Ok let’s set some timelines and parameters. The 7 year war lasted 1756-1762/63.

During that time Pitt was never prime minister, he was the “foreign minister” or as know minister of southern department. During the 7 year war there were about 4 prime ministers but Pitt only became prime minister in 1766 to 1768.

While there were those who wished to rob France of all its colonies the government and other politicians and powerful Englishmen did not want to turn all of Europe against Britain.

If we are to follow through on your comment aboutEnglsnd keeping all it had captured then it would of also kicked France out of India and Africa. But it would of lost the opportunity to convince it to swap territory with Spain during the negotiations and France would still been a danger to the 13 colonies in north America.

Instead it used its strong position to strike several territory swapping arrangements

The French gave up parts of its North America to Spain. In return it received Carribean, Grand Banks, Africa and India. Although it’s indus territory lost much influence.

So what was important for England/Britain in the negotiations.
1) stop siege of Gibraltar
2) secure 13 colonies from attack by French is hostile native tribe allied with France or other foreign power.
4) control all of North American continent north of Florida
5) gain Menorca back
6) gain the upper hand in India
7) END WAR

All of these it did by giving some territory back to France and establishing while at same time establishing Britain as most powerful country.

So what would of been accomplished by a more aggressive stand, continuation of war, loss of leverage in negotiations and antagonising European powers even more than they did.

 

[Lusitania]

This has been commented on here, and in the history books. Britain attempted to 'look good' through the soft peace, but after dumping Austria for Prussia, then leaving Prussia to fend for itself, and thrashing France/Spain, there was no real chance for Britain to have friends left.

Actually Britain retained its oldest ally which has been an ally of England / Britain for over 500 years.

 

[unprincipled peter]

Actually Britain retained its oldest ally which has been an ally of England / Britain for over 500 years.

I assume you mean Portugal, who was an ally out of necessity. Britain treated them pretty lousy, which is one reason Portugal looked the other way during the American Revolution.

 

[Lusitania]

I assume you mean Portugal, who was an ally out of necessity. Britain treated them pretty lousy, which is one reason Portugal looked the other way during the American Revolution.

Britain and Portugal have been allies since the 14th century. Yes the relationship was not always equal but in the 7 year war. The British did send troops to Portugal who together with Portuguese troops under the command of Lippy defeated the spanish and drive them out of Portugal.

As for the American Revolution it was not portugal’s place to send troops since Britain never requested Portuguese assistance.

 

[unprincipled peter]

As for the American Revolution it was not portugal’s place to send troops since Britain never requested Portuguese assistance

that's not the version I read. Portugal had requested assistance during a colonial dustup with Spain, and were denied, so a few years later, when Britain asked for assistance, Portugal said no. It peeved the Brits, who were not used to the junior partner not jumping when the fingers were snapped.

 

[Lusitania]

that's not the version I read. Portugal had requested assistance during a colonial dustup with Spain, and were denied, so a few years later, when Britain asked for assistance, Portugal said no. It peeved the Brits, who were not used to the junior partner not jumping when the fingers were snapped.

Well the Portuguese after 7 year war hired Lippy to reorganize the Portuguese armed forces and at same time the Portuguese were fighting Spain in southern Brazil in the undeclared war. Spain refused to turn over the lands captured in the 7 year war and till 1777 the Portuguese fought them. But it was undeclared because it did not want to start a new war with Spain on the Iberian Peninsula.

As for the revolutionary war, Britain was fighting both France and Spain as well as the rebels in Americas.

The Portuguese occupied in reorganizing, with limited budget, supporting a war against Spain in southern Brazil and unwilling to go to war with both France and Spain again advised Britain it did not have the means.

The issue is that Portugal was the only ally Britain always had in Europe since 14th century but it did not have the luxury of having a navy to stop attacks across its borders so any war had a habit of ending up on its territory. This was what happen to Portugal during the Napoleónicas wars when it refused French/Spanish demands it was invaded.

 

[Lusitania]

that's not the version I read. Portugal had requested assistance during a colonial dustup with Spain, and were denied, so a few years later, when Britain asked for assistance, Portugal said no. It peeved the Brits, who were not used to the junior partner not jumping when the fingers were snapped.

I wonder who your source was? Was it British?

 

[VaultJumper]

Ok let’s set some timelines and parameters. The 7 year war lasted 1756-1762/63.

During that time Pitt was never prime minister, he was the “foreign minister” or as know minister of southern department. During the 7 year war there were about 4 prime ministers but Pitt only became prime minister in 1766 to 1768.

While there were those who wished to rob France of all its colonies the government and other politicians and powerful Englishmen did not want to turn all of Europe against Britain.

If we are to follow through on your comment aboutEnglsnd keeping all it had captured then it would of also kicked France out of India and Africa. But it would of lost the opportunity to convince it to swap territory with Spain during the negotiations and France would still been a danger to the 13 colonies in north America.

Instead it used its strong position to strike several territory swapping arrangements

The French gave up parts of its North America to Spain. In return it received Carribean, Grand Banks, Africa and India. Although it’s indus territory lost much influence.

So what was important for England/Britain in the negotiations.
1) stop siege of Gibraltar
2) secure 13 colonies from attack by French is hostile native tribe allied with France or other foreign power.
4) control all of North American continent north of Florida
5) gain Menorca back
6) gain the upper hand in India
7) END WAR

All of these it did by giving some territory back to France and establishing while at same time establishing Britain as most powerful country.

So what would of been accomplished by a more aggressive stand, continuation of war, loss of leverage in negotiations and antagonising European powers even more than they did.

all good points although they would not have much to loose by being more aggressive but that's hindsight so can't really use that. The British effectively destroyed the French Indian colonial holdings by force them to their cites and not allowing fortification and only token garrisons not mention loss of french Indian allies either through conquest or defection. taking just Gaudeloupa and Marinique not would have hindered France's effort to rebuild their navy and deprives them of a valuable good maybe they could started a lucrative sugar smuggling business into France. With Pitt in charge he would have push to take the islands and would France would have been in the position to say no and there was opposition in Parliament to the territorial swaps granted the Newcastle Pitt split greatly hindered his ambitions. The pod would probably have to be Pitt being appointed over Robinson to represent Newcastle in the house of commons to get Pitt to be in position to effect the outcome in is favor.

 

[Lusitania]

all good points although they would not have much to loose by being more aggressive but that's hindsight so can't really use that. The British effectively destroyed the French Indian colonial holdings by force them to their cites and not allowing fortification and only token garrisons not mention loss of french Indian allies either through conquest or defection. taking just Gaudeloupa and Marinique not would have hindered France's effort to rebuild their navy and deprives them of a valuable good maybe they could started a lucrative sugar smuggling business into France. With Pitt in charge he would have push to take the islands and would France would have been in the position to say no and there was opposition in Parliament to the territorial swaps granted the Newcastle Pitt split greatly hindered his ambitions. The pod would probably have to be Pitt being appointed over Robinson to represent Newcastle in the house of commons to get Pitt to be in position to effect the outcome in is favor.

Yes that could be but withholding the Carribean would prevented the transfer of Florida and French Louisiana to Spain and removed France from North America only leaving the British facing a much weaker Spain.

To accomplish what you want the British will need to conquer rest of French North America and extend the war. So unless Pitt can convince British government to continue fighting he not going to extend war. Also the British had accomplished what they set out and they wanted Menorca back.

You cannot get the horse trading, plus return of Menorca and keep the Carribean. Not without additional war and the British did not want it.

 

[Lusitania]

So choose. Keep Carribean but loose Menorca and leave French in North America?

 

[VaultJumper]

Yes that could be but withholding the Carribean would prevented the transfer of Florida and French Louisiana to Spain and removed them from North America.

To accomplish what you want the British will need to conquer rest of French North America and extend war. So unless Pitt can convince British government to continue fighting he not going to ex
tend war. Also the British had accomplished what they set out and they wanted Menorca.

You cannot get the horse trading, plus return of Menorca and keep the Carribean. Not without additional war and the British did not want it.

really why can't you keep both if pitt has influnce? Bute wanted permanent peace by through appeasement while Pitt wanted to cripple France.

 

[Lusitania]

really why can't you keep both if pitt has influnce? Bute wanted permanent peace by through appeasement while Pitt wanted to cripple France.

Because Britain did not control rest of French North America and Florida along with Menorca.

British used the return of French Carribean along with India and Africa to get French out of North America and Menorca back.

You can’t demand what you don’t control.

 

[VaultJumper]

Because Britain did not control rest of French North America and Florida along with Menorca.

British used the return of French Carribean along with India and Africa to get French out of North America and Menorca back.

You can’t demand what you don’t control.

were a break down in communication my bad. we need to get back to my original question if they just took Gaudeloupa and Marinique as the addition to the treaty of Pairs nothing else changes which I think is possible with Pitt in charge. This my opinion on my question now. but I agree it would take more war which in no would happen at that Pitt or no or a change in the course the war earlier on in the war to kick the French Out of North America.

 

[Lusitania]

were a break down in communication my bad. we need to get back to my original question if they just took Gaudeloupa and Marinique as the addition to the treaty of Pairs nothing else changes which I think is possible with Pitt in charge. This my opinion on my question now. but I agree it would take more war which in no would happen at that Pitt or no or a change in the course the war earlier on in the war to kick the French Out of North America.

But you cannot take the Carribean colonies and everything else stay the same that is the Issue.

The return of the Carribean islands allowed French to give up land they still controlled. You cannot get the French to give up Menorca and rest of North America.

So I keep telling you choose keep Islands and loose Menorca plus French stay in North America or give French the islands back.

Those are your choices. As we say you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

 

[VaultJumper]

But you cannot take the Carribean colonies and everything else stay the same that is the Issue.

The return of the Carribean islands allowed French to give up land they still controlled. You cannot get the French to give up Menorca and rest of North America.

So I keep telling you choose keep Islands and loose Menorca plus French stay in North America or give French the islands back.

Those are your choices. As we say you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Oh there's our disagreement. In our timeline there is no reason or way this happens but with Pitt instead of Bute in charge it most likely would happen because France's navy was crippled same with Spain's Pitt didn't care about saving face.

 

[Lusitania]

Oh there's our disagreement. In our timeline there is no reason or way this happens but with Pitt instead of Bute in charge it most likely would happen because France's navy was crippled same with Spain's Pitt didn't care about saving face.

Ok I giving up because I cannot make you see reason or make you understand that for Britain to get Menorca back plus get the French out of French Louisiana and Florida the British need to invade and conquer them. You show me a TL that shows the 7 year war being longer and British being stronger and having more resources which they did not want to commit then go ahead.

You can take everything away from France that you control but you cannot take anything you cannot. What would be the reasons the French going to give up Menorca? or trade Florida and Louisiana to the Spanish? You have not told me what re you going to offer the French? You can put who ever you want in government but you cannot change facts. Unless this is an ASB question then you have it in the wrong forum.

Its like a thief steals your car they can keep the car but that does not give them the right to your house or ability to get your house because it is in your possession.

 

[VaultJumper]

Ok I giving up because I cannot make you see reason or make you understand that for Britain to get Menorca back plus get the French out of French Louisiana and Florida the British need to invade and conquer them. You show me a TL that shows the 7 year war being longer and British being stronger and having more resources which they did not want to commit then go ahead.

You can take everything away from France that you control but you cannot take anything you cannot. What would be the reasons the French going to give up Menorca? or trade Florida and Louisiana to the Spanish? You have not told me what re you going to offer the French? You can put who ever you want in government but you cannot change facts. Unless this is an ASB question then you have it in the wrong forum.

Its like a thief steals your car they can keep the car but that does not give them the right to your house or ability to get your house because it is in your possession.

I am not saying they kick the French out of North America just add Gaudeloupa and Marinique onto the things GB takes from France. France would still keep Haiti and any other Islands just not Gaudeloupa and Marinique. GB is at end of the 7 years war is in a dominate position if they wanted could have dictated it to France but Bute did not want to antagonize France so they gave a nicer treaty than what their victory could get them. and this is war both belligerents are squatters it just happened that GB was the better Sqautter and decided to be nice so that other squatters would be nice to them.

 

[Lusitania]

I am not saying they kick the French out of North America just add Gaudeloupa and Marinique onto the things GB takes from France. France would still keep Haiti and any other Islands just not Gaudeloupa and Marinique. GB is at end of the 7 years war is in a dominate position if they wanted could have dictated it to France but Bute did not want to antagonize France so they gave a nicer treaty than what their victory could get them. and this is war both belligerents are squatters it just happened that GB was the better Sqautter and decided to be nice so that other squatters would be nice to them.

You are stuck on wanting Britain to get the island but not understanding that Britain also wAnted France Tl give up other territory France continued to control.

Britain got France to give that territory because they got the islands back. You keep the island French not going to give Britain back Menorca or transfer Florida and Louisiana to Spain.

You can say what ever you want but you cannot force France to give you everything you got iOTL and still keep the island. Negotiations do not work that way. Don’t care what you think but Britain did not have a gun to France head. They had advantage but did not occupy France.

So stop saying we take it too. Unless this ASB then you might as well say France going to give us Haiti and Britany.

Not possible. What are you going to give France for them to abandon North America that still had French soldiers ready to fight or Menorca that already repulsed one British attack and able to defend itself.

Tell me something not just fantasy.