What if the British Empire never existed?

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The Treasure Fleet got as far as East Africa.

When (iotl) the Chinese government changed leaders and governing philosophies, the Treasure Fleet program was abruptly closed down and anything related to it was stomped out.

It is conceivable that with continued administration support, the Treasure Fleet would have gone around the Cape of Good Hope and made its way up the west coast of Africa.

Given its mission involved the known world, no, it is not.

There is no reason for it to do so. It was not searching for new territory or new conquests, so what's the point of sailing in hopes of finding something?

Edit: I was going with the flap-of-butterfly-wings-causing-typhoon perspective, so, my theory from that POV isn't a huge stretch, I think.

This isn't a Chinese equivalent to Columbus or Magellan. And getting that would take a very significant POD - not mere chance.
 
Given the times it's not likely but the takeover of India could be avoided if Parliament gets an attack of ethics and puts a stop to the East India Company running its own army and navy. Without the ability to fight their own wars then the E.I.C will have to remain a purely trading company rather than a semi independant state within a state.

It wouldn't do anything to prevent Britain or rather England from establishing settlers in New England in the 17th century, geography makes that all but inevitable and with the Industrial Revolution driving people off the land in the 18th century settlers will not be hard to find. Still if the Dutch hold on to New Amsterdam it should be possible to restrict the settlements to New England.

One way to prevent English domination of the entire East Coast of North America and have the Dutch regain New Amsterdam would be for the Glorius Revolution of 1688 descend into a protracted civil war allowing other powers to snap up the valuable Caribbean Islands and Virginia.
 
One way to prevent English domination of the entire East Coast of North America and have the Dutch regain New Amsterdam would be for the Glorius Revolution of 1688 descend into a protracted civil war allowing other powers to snap up the valuable Caribbean Islands and Virginia.

And what pray tell prevents them from being (re)taken when that settles down again?
 
Given its mission involved the known world, no, it is not.

There is no reason for it to do so. It was not searching for new territory or new conquests, so what's the point of sailing in hopes of finding something?



This isn't a Chinese equivalent to Columbus or Magellan. And getting that would take a very significant POD - not mere chance.

Agreeing to somewhat disagree.

I think with continued official encouragement for continued operation, they would have gone around southern Africa, just on sheer human nature. They weren't looking for new territory/conquests, but they were looking to expand influence. AFAIK each voyage went further and further, I think they would have kept to that pattern. Everything about the Treasure Fleet was over the top. I don't think they would have limited themselves.
 
Agreeing to somewhat disagree.

I think with continued official encouragement for continued operation, they would have gone around southern Africa, just on sheer human nature.

Why? "Explore because its there" is not human nature - or at least not as relates to such expensive expeditions.

Everything about the Treasure Fleet was over the top. I don't think they would have limited themselves.

Including the claims on how big the ships were, but that's more a matter of interesting detail than anything else.

http://www.1421exposed.com/html/fathoming.html - I suggest getting a copy of the pdf if you're interested in this sort of thing.

It'll probably take a while, but its worth a read.


But as relates to this: I do think that they would have limited themselves because they were not intended to be something that would have any purpose rounding Africa. An outward looking China exploring? Quite possible. But the Treasure Fleets specifically? There's no reason for them to be involved.

http://www.1421exposed.com/html/zheng_he.html

I would be happy to read any proof of these voyages being meant for any purposes that would involve rounding Africa.
 
Why? "Explore because its there" is not human nature - or at least not as relates to such expensive expeditions.



Including the claims on how big the ships were, but that's more a matter of interesting detail than anything else.

http://www.1421exposed.com/html/fathoming.html - I suggest getting a copy of the pdf if you're interested in this sort of thing.

It'll probably take a while, but its worth a read.


But as relates to this: I do think that they would have limited themselves because they were not intended to be something that would have any purpose rounding Africa. An outward looking China exploring? Quite possible. But the Treasure Fleets specifically? There's no reason for them to be involved.

http://www.1421exposed.com/html/zheng_he.html

I would be happy to read any proof of these voyages being meant for any purposes that would involve rounding Africa.


Thanks for the PDFs

I just as soon would stand on being sad to read any proof that they wouldn't round southern Africa given the opportunity. :cool:
 
Thanks for the PDFs

I just as soon would stand on being sad to read any proof that they wouldn't round southern Africa given the opportunity. :cool:

Simple. Look at their objectives. None of them do anything to suggest rounding southern Africa is relevant.

It's like saying that - oh - the Channel Fleet is not going to explore the South Pacific.

That might clear up my point a bit, I'm sure that outward looking Chinese at some point would at least want to find out if there really -is- nothing worth it, depending on what develops.
 
A few ways to have no British Empire:

1) Give England/Britain territory on the European continent, thus necessitating more of its resources going to its army and thus less to the navy. Suppose England had held on to part of Northern France, or Elizabeth I had accepted the Netherlands' offer of sovereignty? Then they'd have to garrison these areas against the threat of invasion. Now, England/Britain could still have a navy, of course, but it might not be as strong as in OTL, and it might have ended up losing the colonies it did found, like the Dutch did for most of theirs.

2) Have England decide upon the same religiously rigid position as France and Spain, in which dissenters were forbidden from settling. Take away all the non-Anglicans, and the population of all the British settler colonies becomes much smaller, and they become much more vulnerable to conquest by another force.

3) Have England win the Hundred Years' War. It's counter-intuitive, but losing that war was probably the best thing possible for England's national identity. An English victory almost certainly means the English kings moving to Paris and becoming Frenchmen. Over time England probably would have become French-speaking, much as Scotland, Wales and Ireland became English-speaking. Whatever colonies this kingdom would have would not be British as we know it.
 
America would be split

Spain would have replaced the British empire as the strongest empire. They would most likely still be in control of most of America. Also Napoleon who didn't have the British blockading or continuously fighting conquers all of Europe.
 
I would go with the BEIC road: going even quite late.

If the Battle of Plassey (and subsequent ones) is lost during the 7 Years war, France can retain control of India. The richess from India (half of it was in the French sphere of influence prior to the 7YW) as well as a stronger position in Europe allow it to strenghten its position in the Americas, taking English Canada as well as some of the 13 colonies at the end of the war.

Alternatively, Napoleon manages to invade England. Unlikely yes, absolutely not ASB, especially if the 1796 is less botched and a freak storm doesn't happen destroying the whole fleet.

More far fetched, massive European war around 1860-1880 and Russia manages to grab India or at least expel the Brits from there
 
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