What If: The British Empire decided not to bow down to American whims and dissolve?

[davidsmith]

I can't believe anyone could say they have a great fondness for the British Empire.

To my mind that just shows the whitewashing that has gone in British minds following WW2. Most British people have the idea that theirs was a benevolent empire and they uplifted the native people and got rid of their 'uncivilised' ways

That said, there was a look at moving to an imperial parliament, but ultimately the fact that India has a vastly greater population would meant it would always have greater sway the UK and as such it was a no go.

 

[B-29_Bomber]

I can't believe anyone could say they have a great fondness for the British Empire.

To my mind that just shows the whitewashing that has gone in British minds following WW2. Most British people have the idea that theirs was a benevolent empire and they uplifted the native people and got rid of their 'uncivilised' ways

That said, there was a look at moving to an imperial parliament, but ultimately the fact that India has a vastly greater population would meant it would always have greater sway the UK and as such it was a no go.

Who doesn't look back fondly at a time when their country is great and powerful (or at least perceived as such).

 

[joelee77]

I can't believe anyone could say they have a great fondness for the British Empire.

For one, I'm very thankful that when my family was fleeing the Communists in China, there was a patch of British Empire to which they could flee, and where they were allowed to stay and rebuild their lives.

 

[Thomas1195]

British Empire fell anyway, without the following PODs.

Somehow you must prevent the fall of Malaya and Singapore, as the former was the main source of dollars for Britain during 1939-1941, whereas the loss of the latter was a huge blow to British prestige.

Then, having Britain give more support to Australia and New Zealand, so that they would not drift towards the US like IOTL. But better have Australia and New Zealand becoming industrialised at least on the scale of Canada before ww2.

Postwar, have Britain cooperate with France in European economic integration from the beginning as founding members. This is only possible with a Liberal government. Takeover the leading role from France if possible, as this could allow Britain to extend the trading bloc to absorb the White Dominions.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there

The Creation of the British Empire (or any Empire for that matter) is best summed up by Eddie Izzard and some stop motion Lego

The best and most profitable bits of the Empire were already becoming independent and for a nation that promotes itself and 'stood up' as a defender of Law and democracy (WW1 and WW2) cannot at the same time rule an Empire of people not provided with the same!

With other industrialised nations directly competing and even exceeding Britain's industrial capacity it became impossible to maintain the cost of a large navy and Imperial Army as well as the Bureaucratic machinary necessary to protect, police and run such an Empire that had become a net drain.

Lastly the will no longer existed in Britain to exploit and dominate large chunks of the world for a whole variety of reasons and with ever improving education and access to information and rising levels of socialism in the UK it was only a matter of time before the Empire was 'dissolved' (for want of a better word).

 

[Lost Freeway]

Who doesn't look back fondly at a time when their country is great and powerful (or at least perceived as such).

Someone who opposes the oppression of so-called lesser peoples?

 

[gaijin]

Who doesn't look back fondly at a time when their country is great and powerful (or at least perceived as such).

That would be me then. Because that time when my country was great and powerful was also a time when we engaged in many heinous acts against innocent people. I think the wrong that we did outweighs the little power trip I might get from thinking about how "kickass" my particular tribe used to be.

 

[TRH]

For one, I'm very thankful that when my family was fleeing the Communists in China, there was a patch of British Empire to which they could flee, and where they were allowed to stay and rebuild their lives.

At the same time, there probably wouldn't have been Communists to flee if the British and other foreigners hadn't spent a century meddling in Chinese affairs.

 

[Thomas1195]

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there

The Creation of the British Empire (or any Empire for that matter) is best summed up by Eddie Izzard and some stop motion Lego

The best and most profitable bits of the Empire were already becoming independent and for a nation that promotes itself and 'stood up' as a defender of Law and democracy (WW1 and WW2) cannot at the same time rule an Empire of people not provided with the same!

With other industrialised nations directly competing and even exceeding Britain's industrial capacity it became impossible to maintain the cost of a large navy and Imperial Army as well as the Bureaucratic machinary necessary to protect, police and run such an Empire that had become a net drain.

Lastly the will no longer existed in Britain to exploit and dominate large chunks of the world for a whole variety of reasons and with ever improving education and access to information and rising levels of socialism in the UK it was only a matter of time before the Empire was 'dissolved' (for want of a better word).

Hard British Empire was impossible, but this was not the case for a soft Empire with holding some strategic positions like Suez, Singapore and Gibraltar, as well as having White Dominions as Sphere of Influence. This would require a stronger British economy during the interwar and after that, as well as no appeasement (this would strangle ww2 from the beginning). A Liberal (by 1920s had become radical) dominated government after ww1 would be a really good POD.

For a hard British Empire, you need British industries adopt new technology of the Second Industrial Revolution like electricity, combustion engine, mass production, semi-automation or organic chemistry, instead of becoming rapidly outdated by early 20th century. This would require a POD before 1900, for example, PM Joseph Chamberlain with a Radical Liberal government. Britain with a share of 20% or above of world manufacturing output would butterfly away world war 1, because 20% would be more than the whole Central Powers combined.

 

[Wallet]

The American President/Secretary of State/Ambassador would say....

HAHAHAHA That's soooooo cute!! Now give us OUR money.

Seriously, after each world war the British were in deep debt to the US. The Suex crisis is seen as the end of British power. Eisenhower got the British to withdraw simply by threatening to call in all their debt. Knowing they couldn't possibly pay it off (it took to 2011 OTL!) the British withdrew.

The US demanding the British pay its debt would destroy the British economy. Your best bet is no world wars. The British don't borrow any cash, have more man power, and the US doesn't have the power projection to force the British to withdraw.

 

[Pangur]

The American President/Secretary of State/Ambassador would say....

HAHAHAHA That's soooooo cute!! Now give us OUR money.

Seriously, after each world war the British were in deep debt to the US. The Suex crisis is seen as the end of British power. Eisenhower got the British to withdraw simply by threatening to call in all their debt. Knowing they couldn't possibly pay it off (it took to 2011 OTL!) the British withdrew.

The US demanding the British pay its debt would destroy the British economy. Your best bet is no world wars. The British don't borrow any cash, have more man power, and the US doesn't have the power projection to force the British to withdraw.

Most certainly no ww1.

 

[Lost Freeway]

That would be me then. Because that time when my country was great and powerful was also a time when we engaged in many heinous acts against innocent people. I think the wrong that we did outweighs the little power trip I might get from thinking about how "kickass" my particular tribe used to be.

Exactly.

 

[Thomas1195]

Most certainly no ww1.

For a soft, lesser British Empire, no ww2 is enough. No ww2 means that Soviet would not get the whole Eastern Europe, while the US still stay isolated.

A pre 1900 POD is required to butterfly away ww1, as a Britain with a 20% share of world manufacturing would certainly blow away ww1, since 20% is more than the whole CPs combined.

 

[Pangur]

For a soft, lesser British Empire, no ww2 is enough.

Though about that and went for ww1 for a few reasons, British interests were not badly endangered by Germany in 1914. The other big reason was quite frankly the Nazis

 

[Thomas1195]

Though about that and went for ww1 for a few reasons, British interests were not badly endangered by Germany in 1914. The other big reason was quite frankly the Nazis

Germany with a booming economy was becoming a serious trade rival for Britain.

 

[David T]

No really, that's my question. The Great and Mighty British Empire tells the Yanks to go f*ck themselves.

Tripolar cold war maybe? Discuss, I want opinions and to learn simultaneously.

Well, the first thing you should learn is that your notion that the British Empire in its traditional form failed to survive simply because the British unnecessarily yielded to American pressure is nonsense. The achievement of virtually full independence for the "white" dominions was a gradual process, but the end result was foreseeable long before the Statute of Westminster (which was not a result of US pressure anyway). As for India, as early as 1917, E. S. Montagu, the secretary of state for India, declared in the House of Commons that "the policy of His Majesty's government...is that of the increasing association of Indians in every branch of the administration and the gradual development of self-governing institutions with a view to the progressive realisation of responsible government in India as part of the British Empire." The Indians interpreted this as a promise of equality with the self-governing "white" dominions. If there was any ambiguity it was dispelled by Lord Irwin's pronouncement on October 31, 1929: "...I am authorized on behalf of His Majesty's Government to state clearly that, in their judgment, it is implicit in the Declaration of 1917 that the natural issue of India's constitutional progress as there contemplated is the attainment of Dominion status." In June 1937, Lord Linlithgow announced his intention of striving for the "full and final establishment in India of the principles of parliamentary government." No doubt the pace was too slow to suit Indian nationalists, but Dominion status could not be put off very long.

 

[TRH]

Germany with a booming economy was becoming a serious trade rival for Britain.

That's a job for tariffs, not battleships.

 

[Thomas1195]

That's a job for tariffs, not battleships.

The German also pursuit an aggressive colonial policy to support their economy via new markets. Worse, they also had a dream of a place in the sun.

 

[NixonTheUsedCarSalesman]

The Empire would have to evolve into something other than an empire if it is to survive and would require the cooperation of the former colonies/possession. I'd suggest Britain could push the benefits of military and economic partnerships in order to limit the heavy hand of the Soviets and Americans on their countries, British help coming with less strings attached and having the benefit of intertia.

That's basically what happens in my timeline. A Commonwealth Union analogous to the EU forms consisting of the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Central African Federation (Rhodesia but no apartheid and sea access), the West Indian Federation and the Pacific Federation. Aden, Malta, Hong Kong, and Singapore become integral parts of the UK.

While not a superpower it holds it's own.

 

[Mr.J]

Who doesn't look back fondly at a time when their country is great and powerful (or at least perceived as such).

Well, I'm pretty sure the Germans don't

Maybe there's Kaiserreich nostalgia?