What if the Austrians won the battle of Morgarten? (Austro-Swiss war)

Hi all

If this subject has been discussed about before can someone please post the thread. Thank you.

The battle of Morgarten regards the cementing and safety for the future growth of the Old Swiss confederacy.

In the battle of Morgarten the Swiss won but what would happen if the Austrians won.

Today culturally Switzerland is made up German, Italian, French, Romansh and Latin. I would expect the Swiss french and Italian territories would to either conquered or given to Kingdom of France, the Duchy of Milan or the Kingdom of Italy. Intriguingly and interestingly what would happen to the German area, would it eventually become dominated by Austria through Further Austria or would another country by created excluding the French and Italian parts.

Here are the details regarding the battle of Morgarten:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Morgarten

Yours thankfully Alexander
 
Eventually, the battle itself seems to have been more important for the proto-Swiss confederacy than it was for Habsburgs, would it be only because the conflict was somehow a regional one among Swiss (not among the confederacy itself, rather than between the different communities that formed IOTL Switzerland IOTL)

Admitting an Habsburg victory, which would have to quite different from IOTL battle which was practically lost from the start, I don't think it would have been enough to destroy this proto-Switzerland.

First, because a non-negligible part of Habsburg support came from communities which would eventually be part of the confederacy, as Zurich. Habsburgs simply need these local support to not have the entiere land against them, and won't pull a blunt "all your bases belong to us" which would be a relatively anachronistic move.

Then, the linguistic factor will play little to no influence : IOTL it didn't in Swiss and didn't really before the Late Middle Age and Renaissance for greater entities as France or HRE. The very nature of the region and its geopolitical situation prevents it (it could arise ITTL, that said, but not as an aftermath of the battle).

Now, you'd certainly have changes (and important butterflies for what matter the region), but for the reason mentioned before, Habsburgs can't press harsh conditions : you'll certainly see the disbandement of the proto-Confederacy but I don't think they'll try to crush the communauties' freedom (not if they don't want to see another rebellion, more or less supported by their neighbours).

Then, Louis IV is still going to be emperor ITTL, safe rogue butterfly, and he's probably going to reckognize their immediacy all the same.

But it's quite possible the proto-Confederacy wouldn't have the same dynamism of absorbtion and expansion over their neighbours, which means a more divided *Switzerland, more tied up to the rest of HRE politics.

Long story short, it does have the potential to prevent the several communauties to form a relatively homogenous block as importantly as IOTL, giving indeed more possible influence to their neighbours (Capetians, Savoie, Habsburgs critically).

That said, how much it could change doesn't depends from this battle only, but it could be a stepstone to bigger changes IMO.
 
Eventually, the battle itself seems to have been more important for the proto-Swiss confederacy than it was for Habsburgs, would it be only because the conflict was somehow a regional one among Swiss (not among the confederacy itself, rather than between the different communities that formed IOTL Switzerland IOTL)

Admitting an Habsburg victory, which would have to quite different from IOTL battle which was practically lost from the start, I don't think it would have been enough to destroy this proto-Switzerland.

First, because a non-negligible part of Habsburg support came from communities which would eventually be part of the confederacy, as Zurich. Habsburgs simply need these local support to not have the entiere land against them, and won't pull a blunt "all your bases belong to us" which would be a relatively anachronistic move.

Then, the linguistic factor will play little to no influence : IOTL it didn't in Swiss and didn't really before the Late Middle Age and Renaissance for greater entities as France or HRE. The very nature of the region and its geopolitical situation prevents it (it could arise ITTL, that said, but not as an aftermath of the battle).

Now, you'd certainly have changes (and important butterflies for what matter the region), but for the reason mentioned before, Habsburgs can't press harsh conditions : you'll certainly see the disbandement of the proto-Confederacy but I don't think they'll try to crush the communauties' freedom (not if they don't want to see another rebellion, more or less supported by their neighbours).

Then, Louis IV is still going to be emperor ITTL, safe rogue butterfly, and he's probably going to reckognize their immediacy all the same.

But it's quite possible the proto-Confederacy wouldn't have the same dynamism of absorbtion and expansion over their neighbours, which means a more divided *Switzerland, more tied up to the rest of HRE politics.

Long story short, it does have the potential to prevent the several communauties to form a relatively homogenous block as importantly as IOTL, giving indeed more possible influence to their neighbours (Capetians, Savoie, Habsburgs critically).

That said, how much it could change doesn't depends from this battle only, but it could be a stepstone to bigger changes IMO.

Hi, thank you for your answer, it's great. What factors after the battle of Morgarten would influence any type of change in and around Switzerland. I know there would be a lot, can you list them and their influences to Switzerland and the region around it as it expanded.
Regards Alexander
 
I don't really know enough about the formative period of the confederation to give you a clear answer (maybe Alex Richards could do it, or virtually everyone else).

But, basically, the region was a mess of communities not always that tied up and without a confederal relative hegemony, you simply might see several regions entering the sphere of influence of their neighbours if not swallowed up for the most peripherical ones due to the lack of a "confederal" alternative (as Geneva, which balanced between Savoy to Swiss, IOTL, which allowed the city to remain roughly independent)

Aside from this general observation, it implies a lot of possibilities and requires a specific knowledge of the region. Sorry that I can't help.
 
I don't really know enough about the formative period of the confederation to give you a clear answer (maybe Alex Richards could do it, or virtually everyone else).

But, basically, the region was a mess of communities not always that tied up and without a confederal relative hegemony, you simply might see several regions entering the sphere of influence of their neighbours if not swallowed up for the most peripherical ones due to the lack of a "confederal" alternative (as Geneva, which balanced between Savoy to Swiss, IOTL, which allowed the city to remain roughly independent)

Aside from this general observation, it implies a lot of possibilities and requires a specific knowledge of the region. Sorry that I can't help.

Who is "Alex Richards" and "virtually everyone else".
 
Alex Richards is a person, member of this board and more knowledgable about Swiss history.

"Virtually anyone else" is a Great Old One that lies in the RCS map thread, and that makes anyone coming close to the ultimate revelation utterly mad and driven by an insane need to colour Britain with a sort of greenish-yellow purple colour.
Or, more likely, litterally virtually anyone else on the board.
 
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