What if Subutai replaced Temujin as Great Khan?

What if Subutai either...
  • ...united the Mongols instead of Temujin, then hired Temujin as his primary general?
  • ...rose to take Temujin's place after the would-be Khan is assassinated by his enemies?

Subutai lived longer than Genghis and his eldest sons, and was one of the best Mongol strategists. He was about as brutal as Genghis, but more openminded and adaptive. Under his rule, might the Mongols expand even quicker and more steadily?
 
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What if Subutai either...
  • ...united the Mongols instead of Temujin, then hired Temujin as his primary general?
  • ...rose to take Temujin's place after the would-be Khan is assassinated by his enemies?

Subutai lived longer than Genghis and his eldest sons, and was one of the best Mongol strategists.
I doubt he could've done the first, he was a commoner.
 
I doubt he could've done the first, he was a commoner.
Well, Subutai could distinguish himself serving one of the early enemies of Temujin, then capture and recruit him (or liberate him from captivity upon deposing his previous lord). But Temujin might backstab him if he felt he had enough support.
 

birdboy2000

Banned
My gut feeling is that the Mongol conquests (and subsequent consolidation into a brief but very large empire) were a once-in-an-eon historical occurrence, and that kind of thing is very easy to screw up. Subutai was quite possibly history's most successful general, but the steppes have forged great generals for ages - the trick is administration.

Temujin, himself extremely openminded, was capable of forging a state - not a lasting state, mind you, but one which survived its leader, had a unified code of law, and was capable for a time of administering vast groups of nomads and settled peoples. It was not capable of doing so particularly well, which led in no small part to the revolts which caused its downfall, but it did it better than many other nomadic peoples who won military supremacy. Can Subutai do the same successfully?

Subutai replacing Temujin would require Temujin himself to successfully get rid of hereditary succession in favor of some kind of meritocracy. This is itself a huge change, perhaps one with greater effects on the Mongol Empire than Subutai's rule, and may or may not be a good thing - on the one hand, hereditary rule provided little stability OTL, when Genghisid siblings and cousins battled a ton for the throne, starting with Genghis' death and questions of Jochi's legitimacy.

On the other hand, a system of government where any ambitious general can become king itself encourages civil wars (which were common anyway) and prevents a very useful form of legitimacy, in the form of direct male-line descent from a heroic leader figure. Even if the Kurultai was given the authority to choose a non-Genghisid khagan by Temujin himself, its decisions were often rebelled against when other powerful figures saw it in their advantage to do so, and it was often unable to enforce its will, especially in the distant corners of the empire. I think the best you can hope for through Subutai and such a system is stability as bad as OTL's, but with more competent people (starting with Subutai) guaranteed to be at the helm. However, there's a real risk that doing this would accelerate fragmentation - witness the fate of Alexander's empire.
 
What if Subutai either...
  • ...united the Mongols instead of Temujin, then hired Temujin as his primary general?
  • ...rose to take Temujin's place after the would-be Khan is assassinated by his enemies?

Subutai lived longer than Genghis and his eldest sons, and was one of the best Mongol strategists. He was about as brutal as Genghis, but more openminded and adaptive. Under his rule, might the Mongols expand even quicker and more steadily?

Well, anything might have happened. No doubt Subutai was outstanding general.

But on the other hand there is a great distance between being a general and politician.
Decision making on a grand scale is a very difficult thing.
As I see it Subutai was instrumental in the grand design of Genghis. Temujin united Mongols and chose the most talented of them to be his generals. So Subutai is the proof that Gengis was exceptionally good at placing right people into the right places.
I think if Subutai had died Gengis would have chosen someone else equally talented, maybe even better.

As a matter of fact when Gengis died his empire was not that great. His best achievement is not his military deeds. He created the system, which could develop without him after he died. The empire did not die without him. That's where no one could outclass him.
He changed mentality of the Mongols and other conquered nomads, he gave them "Jasa of Gengis Khan", a code of rules which changed the world almost as Koran did.

I seriously doubt that Subutai was that good...
 
Yeah, I can't really envision any TL where Subutai become Great Khan, but I CAN see a TL where he convinces them to press forward with the attack into Europe instead of returning to Mongolia for a funeral/kurultai, allowing the Mongols to conquer their way to about Central Europe.
 
Yeah, I can't really envision any TL where Subutai become Great Khan, but I CAN see a TL where he convinces them to press forward with the attack into Europe instead of returning to Mongolia for a funeral/kurultai, allowing the Mongols to conquer their way to about Central Europe.
I can't really envision a TL where Subutai convinces the Chingizids to press forward into Europe when there is going to be a kurultai choosing the next Great Khan.
Subutai was the first to understand that kurultai was the place where the destiny of the world was decided. It needed immediate and full attention of all the influential Mongol leaders. Europe might wait.
 
I can't really envision a TL where Subutai convinces the Chingizids to press forward into Europe when there is going to be a kurultai choosing the next Great Khan.
Subutai was the first to understand that kurultai was the place where the destiny of the world was decided. It needed immediate and full attention of all the influential Mongol leaders. Europe might wait.

Except that Subutai tried to convince the Mongol Princes after the death of Ogedei Khan to press forward into Europe instead of halting and turning back to Mongolia.

By late 1241, Subutai was discussing plans to invade the Holy Roman Empire, when news came of the death of Ögedei Khan. Over the objections of Subutai, the Mongol Princes withdrew the army to Mongolia for the election of a new Great Khan. The death of Ögedei effectively put an end to the Mongol invasion of Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subutai#Final_years



Have Subutai convince the Mongols to press on into Europe, and you have a REALLY interesting POD that could massively shake things up.
 
Except that Subutai tried to convince the Mongol Princes after the death of Ogedei Khan to press forward into Europe instead of halting and turning back to Mongolia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subutai#Final_years
Have Subutai convince the Mongols to press on into Europe, and you have a REALLY interesting POD that could massively shake things up.

With all due respect to wikipedia I cannot believe this information. It goes against the main ideas which are the foundations of the Chengizzid World Empire of this period:
1) the Mongols cannot press a serious large-scale invasion without a really important Chengizzid in charge
2) all really important Chengizzids have to take part in person in kurultai after the death of the Great Khan in order to choose a new Great Khan

Which simply means - no big invasion till the next Great Khan is chosen.
At all. Whatsoever. Impossible. Against the rules. Out of the question.
 
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