What if Spain/Portugal took over North America and the others took the South?

Would South America become the new USA whilst North America became like OTL South America?-with some successes here and there but with plenty of poverty, warfare and coups? (I read the reason why the two Americas developed like they did in OTL was because North American whites shared out the land more evenly amongst each other.)
 
While different legal and political systems must be factors in the differing developments of the Americas, there are geographical features that will remain the same no matter who is in charge:

The coast of Brazil is mostly cliffs - beautiful to look at but a bugger for transportation from the interior to the coastal cities or for export to the rest of the world, so this seems to be a challenging territory to run in a way that avoids poverty or extreme inequality (and the social and political difficulties that may arise from that). If it were not all one country from North to South, it could make a difference - a smaller country that centres around what is Sao Paolo OTL could maybe be a significant economic player.
The area that is OTL United States has enormous agricultural potential - more than the rest of the world, probably - whoever is in charge. A historical change that again sees this territory divided, developing under the control of competing countries of comparable power, could block some of this potential - provided no single country had control over the whole river network, I think.
Argentina is also lucky in its geography, agriculturally speaking - this seems to me the easiest part of South America to imagine developing in a wealthy, stable way.

Another question would also be whether these areas would be put to different use as colonies if taken by different countries, and I'm not so sure they would - for instance, if the English, French or Dutch come upon silver in South America they will probably still want to import slaves to get it - again because the geography - whether you're in a flat plain, mountains, or jungle - determines their economic use as colonies.
 
How would this look?

Assuming that they took the North, the Portuguese would, as OTL get less than the Spaniards, so maybe the Canadian Maritime Provinces, Quebec, and New England? Does Spain still get Mexico?

The areas colonized will drastically affect the outcome of the situation.

Do the Spaniards start off in the Caribbean as OTL and just go north instead of South? Say they don't go for Peru for whatever reason?

Or do they just land in like, Virginia?
 

Lusitania

Donor
But while interesting it is totally unrealistic. Portuguese were in Brazil because it was on way to India. Spanish were looking for way to India and China at first then for treasure. That was the reason fir their placement. Also both Portugal and Spain were both st the southern end of Europe and first out the gate in terms of exploring and colonization.

To do what you indicate there needs to be economic, political and military sense and we do not see that possible with existing countries.
 
The French would likely be the first to get to South America, since they got to N America before Britain, and were just such a powerful force at the time. They would probably end up conquering the Incas, since they'd be the first to find out abt. them.

This means Britain won't be as prominent in the Americas, and maybe globally, as OTL.
 
Getting Portugal and Spain out of South America is not that difficult, you just nerf Iberia, for example a longer or no reconquest.

Getting the Iberian nations out of South America and into North America is what is difficult. Brazil is on the route to India and is easiest to get to from Europe, other than Newfoundland/ St. Lawrence. You can do it, but you have to do something really weird with the timeline.

For example, its the Chinese colonizes the Americas (both continents) but as the dynasty declines the European nations come in and grab treaty ports in the western hemisphere whereever they can.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Getting Portugal and Spain out of South America is not that difficult, you just nerf Iberia, for example a longer or no reconquest.

Getting the Iberian nations out of South America and into North America is what is difficult. Brazil is on the route to India and is easiest to get to from Europe, other than Newfoundland/ St. Lawrence. You can do it, but you have to do something really weird with the timeline.

For example, its the Chinese colonizes the Americas (both continents) but as the dynasty declines the European nations come in and grab treaty ports in the western hemisphere whereever they can.
But what you are implying does not provide France or England with South America. It will greatly put European naval technology between back between 50 to 75 years. Iberian Peninsula not reconquered means Europe is weaker and Muslims are stronger. means no crusades.

So yes this resolves no Portugal and Spain in Americas period not just south and no guarantee of European countries of France or England even exist.
 
Would South America become the new USA whilst North America became like OTL South America?-with some successes here and there but with plenty of poverty, warfare and coups? (I read the reason why the two Americas developed like they did in OTL was because North American whites shared out the land more evenly amongst each other.)

No, South America/Latin America's issues are mainly geographically determined (and exacerbated by poor governance historically since the colonial era). The US South is not exempt to this model, since although it was "wealthy" historically, writers compared the US South and its economic system to the Caribbean and Latin America since before US independence.

The only way Spain and Portugal aren't getting into some part of South America is if they're evicted repeatedly by the natives, which basically means the Portuguese need to be repeatedly defeated by the Tupi in Brazil and the Spanish need to never conquer the Aztecs leaving no way to launch an expedition against the Inca and thus only ephemeral settlements along the Caribbean at the mercy of the natives and/or pirates. I guess they can still colonise the Caribbean though.

Portugal--and Spain--and logically focus north starting with the Caribbean. Portugal grabs the Maritimes starting with Newfoundland (João Vaz Corte-Real, supposedly a discoverer of the Americas back in 1473), while Spain pushes through Florida. An expedition after De Soto's discovers the gold in Georgia, and Spain launches colonial expeditions there while settling the mouth of the Mississippi. Spain settles the coasts of the Carolinas and Georgia with settlers and their slaves to export this gold, and later timber and agricultural wealth. Spanish influence goes as far north as Virginia.

Between Virginia and the Maritimes (maybe Maine?), we need some power to intefere. If Portugal likes the increase in fishing grounds (and associated ports) and joins the fur trade, then maybe they'll occupy those lands. Or perhaps Spain will for the same reason. Either way, this is a recipe for second-rate powers like the Dutch or Swedes to settle there.

As for South America, it could mostly go to France assuming they're more interested in overseas colonialism. OTL they tried in Brazil twice. They have bases in the Caribbean to launch from. And if France is there, then Britain will be there too. The Dutch could go for Chile or Brazil, since they went there OTL. We can save the headache of trying to figure out who gets the rest by having a weakened Inca survive.
 
Both Spain and Portugal tried to colonise North America (North Carolina and Newfoundland respectively) and failed due to a combination of though luck and indian attacks. These attempts at colonies were both settler colonies. At the time neither the Spanish nor the Portuguese were really interested in settler colonies due to their low population and overall more interest in trading with the natives thinking they were the real Indians. The Portuguese found Brazil by accident while trying to find a faster route to India while Columbus' voyage was essentially the Catholic Monarchs getting tired of listening to him and told him to go ignoring the advices of their conselieurs. If we take into account that trade was the main premise for these voyages, North America would be of little to no interest to the Iberians, with underdeveloped natives with no gold, tools or anything resembling something useful for them, in many cases not even knowing about agriculture. The Iberians would likely abandon trade settlements and the only remaining settlements would be of colonists which would expand at a snail's pace. Maybe we could get Spain settle the OTL CSA and Portugal OTL East Canada, but probably not further, as the richnesses of Mexico were far too temptating to anyone. I can't see neither of the two countries ignoring South America thou', specially when the Incas are contacted, and at that moment the North American colonies would likely vanish.
 
You probably don't want this answer, but this just wouldn't happen. In OTL, they both attempted colonization farther north and simply failed due to lack of ability to fight the Indians and also probably climate.

With these in mind, the geography also makes no sense for this. Spain and Portugal are much closer to the Caribbean and South America where as England and France were more able to reach the eastern seaboard of the modern day U.S.

While both Spain and Portugal had ambition to take these areas, it just wasn't feasible for them.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
But while interesting it is totally unrealistic. Portuguese were in Brazil because it was on way to India. Spanish were looking for way to India and China at first then for treasure. That was the reason fir their placement. Also both Portugal and Spain were both st the southern end of Europe and first out the gate in terms of exploring and colonization.

To do what you indicate there needs to be economic, political and military sense and we do not see that possible with existing countries.

I think this view is overly deterministic.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I think this view is overly deterministic.
It was not deterministic but reality if the circumstances. For the Portuguese since 1415 have been trying to sail around Africa. What purpose would they have for sailing north based on their geographical place in Europe. Spain ended up where it was due to some dude swear taking the queen to give him her jewels.
 
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