What if Spain had colonized the 13 colonies instead of the British?

Starforce

Banned
I have been thinking of something like this for a while. Would it have been possible for Spain to have colonized the 13 colonies, and their colonies in our timeline at the same time? Would they have been overstretched?

It just makes me think of what could have resulted in North America, if they were under Spanish Control, well the 13 colonies and the majority of the continent. What is likely is that their Empire would fall apart, maybe? Other nations could use this as an excuse to take over what remains, such as Britain, Netherlands, and France.

This means no founding fathers, no American revolution...at least not yet. Those regions would surely become independent at some point, though the empires that ruled over them can kick the can down the road.

This means no napoleonic wars, or at least as they went in our time line.. It would delay everything, I would imagine. The British would likely become the winners in North America unless something happens, and with the 13 colonies, well what would be that area would have a Spanish culture, and they would more or less be...different from the rest of the British colonies in North America, like Quebec in Canada today.

What are your thoughts?
 
By the late 1500s, Spain had taken all the parts of the Americas that were worth taking. North America was of little value compared to the population centers of the Caribbean, Mesoamerica and the Andes. England's interest in North America was primarily to find a way through it and onto East Asia - even into the 1800s. It was also a dumping ground for England's undesirables (religious dissenters, criminals, etc.). Beyond that, it was of meager economic use for England - Caribbean Islands were far more valuable.

England's geography and uniquely fractured society in the 17th century ensured that the colonies received many immigrants. France, the Netherlands, Sweden, and Spain all failed to produce colonies in North America on the level of England's. Honestly, the fact that the colonies grew to be so huge and wealthy was something England did not plan for or want. As soon as it became clear that the colonies were too large for their own good, it was too late.
 
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Starforce

Banned
By the late 1500s, Spain had taken all the parts of the Americas that were worth taking. North America was of little value compared to the population centers of the Caribbean, Mesoamerica and the Andes. England's interest in North America was primarily to find a way through it and onto East Asia - even into the 1800s. It was also a dumping ground for England's undesirables (Puritans, Catholics, criminals, etc.). Beyond that, it was of meager economic use for England - Caribbean Islands were far more valuable.

England's geography and uniquely fractured society in the 17th century ensured that the colonies received many immigrants. France, the Netherlands, France, and Spain all failed to produce colonies in North America on the level of England's. Honestly, the fact that the colonies grew to be so huge and wealthy was something England did not plan for or want. As soon as it became clear that the colonies were too large for their own good, it was too late.

I see. So for an alternate history, in which the Spanish had the 13 colonies I would think they would have had to been there first, meaning they would never have colonized what they did in our time line. Do you think there would be a way, to replicate what happened in England, but in Spain, France and the Netherlands?

Or is there a way Spain could have won some form of alternate war, and taken the 13 colonies or areas of them through force?
 

Hnau

Banned
I think it was a toss-up as to whether the Portuguese or the Spanish could contact the Aztecs or Mexica first. Hell, the English could have done it. Yet any conquistador would have had to be truly exceptional to pull off what Hernán Cortés did in our timeline. More likely, the Mexica absorb some European invaders, take their technology and animals, shrug off the effects of the first wave of diseases like European typhus and smallpox, and are able to keep some kind of native hegemony for a while on the mainland. The Caribbean was pretty valuable and it would have been tough for the Portuguese to maintain the fleet size at some point to protect all of those islands. It probably was likely to fall under Spanish control after the New World is discovered.

This being the case, I think the question is, what would the Spanish do if they were denied New Spain for a while, even just a generation or two? Well, the Muisca are in Colombia, and the mouth of the Mississippi River is also a great place for a port, yet it's easier to sail to the eastern seaboard of North America. There's indio villages to raids, slaves to take, and some interesting agricultural products, a decent growing season if you can find land available to grow on... I'd say the Spanish imperial government would likely find a way to make money from this region if denied New Spain.
 

Starforce

Banned
I think it was a toss-up as to whether the Portuguese or the Spanish could contact the Aztecs or Mexica first. Hell, the English could have done it. Yet any conquistador would have had to be truly exceptional to pull off what Hernán Cortés did in our timeline. More likely, the Mexica absorb some European invaders, take their technology and animals, shrug off the effects of the first wave of diseases like European typhus and smallpox, and are able to keep some kind of native hegemony for a while on the mainland. The Caribbean was pretty valuable and it would have been tough for the Portuguese to maintain the fleet size at some point to protect all of those islands. It probably was likely to fall under Spanish control after the New World is discovered.

This being the case, I think the question is, what would the Spanish do if they were denied New Spain for a while, even just a generation or two? Well, the Muisca are in Colombia, and the mouth of the Mississippi River is also a great place for a port, yet it's easier to sail to the eastern seaboard of North America. There's indio villages to raids, slaves to take, and some interesting agricultural products, a decent growing season if you can find land available to grow on... I'd say the Spanish imperial government would likely find a way to make money from this region if denied New Spain.

So what you are basically saying is that the Spanish would have colonized modern day southern United States, and parts of Mexico then? Interesting. The thing with the Spanish was, being they were more brutal to the natives than the other European powers. I can see them attempting to conquer and control through force, which would take some time though they would most likely be successful. What extent do you see them growing to, in North America?
 

Hnau

Banned
It would be easier to conquer and control the peoples of the eastern seaboard than the Mexica. We now know that they were more advanced than many historians thought at first, but certainly the Mexica had greater technology, numbers, and social organization. It wouldn't be surprising if North America ends up to be more Spanish culturally than even Mexico IOTL. Yet, it's more likely that it will absorb many different types of Europeans if the colonies endure for more than a couple centuries.

If the Aztec Empire holds, at least for a while, then the Spanish could very well hang onto a shoreline, maybe a city in the Yucatan, and Central America would be open for the taking.
 

Starforce

Banned
It would be easier to conquer and control the peoples of the eastern seaboard than the Mexica. We now know that they were more advanced than many historians thought at first, but certainly the Mexica had greater technology, numbers, and social organization. It wouldn't be surprising if North America ends up to be more Spanish culturally than even Mexico IOTL. Yet, it's more likely that it will absorb many different types of Europeans if the colonies endure for more than a couple centuries.

If the Aztec Empire holds, at least for a while, then the Spanish could very well hang onto a shoreline, maybe a city in the Yucatan, and Central America would be open for the taking.


So lets say this happens, I am assuming they would break away from spain at a later date due to being more culturally connected. What do you forsee happening, for the future of them, do you think they would dwindle and fall, and be open for other nations or would they prosper? If the fail and fall, other European nations would probably swoop in and influence them, in some way. If they stay we could have a...Spanish United States?
 

Hnau

Banned
I mean, who knows what could happen in the long run. Butterflies would be rampant in 16th and 17th century Europe and Asia. Less gold for the Spanish... hmm.. it's possible that OTL New England, what the Native Americans called the Dawnland, would be left relatively uncolonized because of the differing tribes from the Chesapeake Bay, and the colder climate which the Spanish would be less comfortable in compared with the British. They could end up planting their version of Jamestown instead at Boston Harbor or... less advantageous more northern spots. Yet the French could get there first, or the Dutch, or the Holy Roman Empire, or even the Ottomans or the Danes given the right happenstance.

It's an important question, because depending on what happens during the Wars of Religion in Europe, there are going to be a lot of Protestants or even Catholics wanting to get out. The eastern seaboard is close, so it's likely to receive many immigrants, that is unless the European powers have certain policies in place to redirect them elsewhere. If you go south and west far enough there is always more land.

If Spanish Virginia or New York ends up absorbing immigrants, especially ones that speak another language and have a different culture, then civil wars are much more likely. If not, then they likely remain more stable and loyal to Spain. Much also depends on how many African slaves the Spanish or others import to work plantations. Independence movements will only arise out of particular political circumstances, but the economic forces will often point towards rebellion for the natives, especially in the age of mercantilism.
 
The Spanish probably could have created a similar series of settler colonies on the Eastern Seaboard at around the same time. The initial wave of La Conquista was over and new efforts like those of the Jesuits took a different strategy than the first conquests. Spain "had something to prove" after its defeats against England, just as England "had something to prove" by having fallen behind Spain until the 1600s. This was also the time when Spain was sending more European settlers to the Southern Cone. The earliest English arrivals were also rather similar to conquistador attempts de facto. The biggest tensions would be religious, would the Spaniards be okay with sending Protestants even as banished exiles? And would they sack New Netherland and replace it with a different Spain-centric stronghold and trading post, rather than conquer and integrate it?
 

Lusitania

Donor
The issue is that the loss of Granada and new Spain will great reduce the power and influence of Spain. Spain did not have the minorities and religious diversity like England to spur the same type of settler colonies. Also there would of needed to been a major change in control access to the colonies. Only Seville was allowed to sail to the new world iOTL. What we needed would of been Italians, Aragoneses and basque plus other groups allowed to emigrate.

The difference was the riches of the Carribean, new Spain and Granada called many Spanish searching for riches. That would not of been what called the Spanish to the 13 colonies. It was religious and political liberty that brought the English to 13 colonies an it took close 100 years of continuous settlers arriving for them to be the success they were.

Without the riches of iOTL the Spanish would never of married into the Habsburg family and the Spanish never be involved in the Low Countries.

Heck they would never of been rich enough to enforce the Iberian Union.
 
It depends on the POD:

* POD: Spain manages to fend off english-french-dutch-others from settling in the 13 colonies. Spain is overstretched, small "presidios" would appear. The "presidios" would have a mission, a few colonists and a few soldiers. Just the model that was used from Texas to California. Slow conversion of the natives to catholicism, creation of a network of allied tribes and creation of small population centers.

* POD: Spain manages to fend off english-french-dutch-others from settling in the 13 colonies. Spain is overstretched, and some religious orders get concessions there. Think of the "Jesuitic reductions": natives receive religion with access to modern technology. This POD is really interesting as you could potentially have an amerindian nation, with modern tecnology and access to the iron and coal mines of the region... An Iroquian "Meiji" with jesuitic universities?

* POD: Spain arrives later to the Americas race and only gets this "useless" part, the idea of the Reconquista would make them a bit more aggresive and they would military conquest and force conversion. Then cities would be built and the natives would be integrated.
 

Starforce

Banned
I believe that what would happen is that the Spanish colonies would be overtaken by other nations at a later date, and the Spanish culture would be a minority 'today'. Perhaps the English and Dutch would lead a joint invasion of spain at some point, an alternate version of the 7 years war where Spain loses their colonies in North America and they are taken by the British and Dutch, plus maybe the French.
 

Lusitania

Donor
The so called Iberian Union was not a matter of riches.
But it many ways it was.

For like in 1383 the king of Spain (then castile) had claim to Portuguese throne as result of his marriage to former kings daughter. What was different was that many Portuguese nobles swayed by Spanish gold and riches backed the claim.

No Spanish gold, no Spanish might, no great Spanish influence. We might not have a marriage to Spain, the pope might not of been under Spanidh King’s influence and granted heir to Portuguese throne dispensation to renounce his vows and marry thus producing an heir.

So you see no Spanish riches then whole different world. Portuguese riches from its spice trade would of granted it much more influence and power.

That was why I stipulated no Iberian Union.
 
I think that it was @LSCatilina that made some very good arguments about how Italy was the main source of cash for the King of Aragon and Castille in late 16th, and early 17th century.
 
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