What if Soviet 88mm

What if the CCCP acquired the 88mm before world war 2?
The production of the 88mm began around 1935 so maybe a Communist sympathizer was able to smuggle one over. What would happen in 1941?
 
The Soviets had an equivalent weapon available in 1939, the 85mm AA gun. When fitted in a T-34 turret, it was known as a D-5T. These weapons were quite capable against armour and were issued with AT rounds.
 
The Soviets had an equivalent weapon available in 1939, the 85mm AA gun. When fitted in a T-34 turret, it was known as a D-5T. These weapons were quite capable against armour and were issued with AT rounds.
Yeah but it anti tank qualities weren't realized until 1943. I they think they would've realized the 88mm anti tank ability several months in the war.The 85 mm wasn't as effective as the 88mm namely longer range and Muzzle velocity.
 
The German 88mm started life as an AA weapon too. It wasn't unusual for AA weapons to see service in the AT role and perform well - apart from the 88mm and 85mm we've mentioned, the British 3.7" gun was very good against tanks and so was the US 90mm. And until 1942 or so, the 76mm gun that armed most Soviet tanks was capable of knocking out the German armour they encountered. It was only running into the Tiger and (later) Panther that gave urgency to upgunning them.

The problem isn't the lack of a suitable gun, but rather that the Soviets didn't decide to use it primarily in the AT role earlier. So instead of getting focused on a specific piece of hardware, why don't you look for a PoD that will lead them to that conclusion?
 
The German 88mm started life as an AA weapon too. It wasn't unusual for AA weapons to see service in the AT role and perform well - apart from the 88mm and 85mm we've mentioned, the British 3.7" gun was very good against tanks and so was the US 90mm. And until 1942 or so, the 76mm gun that armed most Soviet tanks was capable of knocking out the German armour they encountered. It was only running into the Tiger and (later) Panther that gave urgency to upgunning them.

The problem isn't the lack of a suitable gun, but rather that the Soviets didn't decide to use it primarily in the AT role earlier. So instead of getting focused on a specific piece of hardware, why don't you look for a PoD that will lead them to that conclusion?
They could've learned from the Spanish civil war. Where it was first used effectively as an anti tank gun.
 
They could've learned from the Spanish civil war. Where it was first used effectively as an anti tank gun.

Ok, so we're looking at something like the Soviets who observed the course of the war noting the way the 88mm gun was used more as an AT and artillery piece than in the AA role. They might be attracted to the idea as a means of simplifying supply and logistics - if the same gun design can do 3 jobs (heavy AA and AT as well as light artillery), that helps matters both in terms of maintenance and manufacture. So the idea comes back to Moscow and someone thinks enough of it to institute a study for a suitable weapon.
Then WW2 kicks off in 1939, and gives the project a bit more urgency.
In the end, three candidates for this are identified - the 76mm AA gun which is currently in service, the 85mm AA gun which is just about to enter service, and the German 88mm itself - a few examples were captured during the Spanish Civil War, and perhaps Communist sympathisers have got enough details out for the USSR to have a stab at constructing one themselves.
At first, it looks like the 76mm gun will win - it's a standard calibre already in the Red Army, which reduces the disruption of switching to it in three roles and means that the tooling and support network already exists, and it's thought to be capable of defeating the armour on any current tank. But in the Battle of France, the Char B1 and Matilda tanks prove to stand up well against the German AT weapons. It's obvious the Germans will have learnt from this experience, and AT weapons will have to get heavier as armour increases. For several months after the fall of France, discussion rages among the committee members overseeing this project: is it better to go ahead with the 76mm gun because it can be supplied sooner and in greater quantities, despite the fact it may not be adequate against the next generation of tanks; or should the 85mm be chosen for it's greater potential? A small but vocal minority holds out for as close to a direct copy of the German 88mm as Soviet industry can manage, but the 85mm is eventually chosen. There are two main reasons for this: firstly, production of the 76mm has already ceased and output of the 85mm is picking up as it takes over the medium/heavy AA role. Secondly, there just isn't time to reverse-engineer the 88mm and put it into production, especially since it would be duplicating the role of the 85mm. This leaves the 85mm selected by default, and the committee recommends that the numbers procured be significantly increased with the aim of standardising on this gun for all medium/heavy AT and AA, along with light artillery batteries.
By the end of 1940 the increased allocations are starting to reach their units - AA formations receive theirs first, but a few have reached AT gunners as well. As 1941 rolls on the numbers increase - a few artillery units are now equipped with the new weapon. But the re-equipment has not been completed before June 1941...
 
Ok, so we're looking at something like the Soviets who observed the course of the war noting the way the 88mm gun was used more as an AT and artillery piece than in the AA role. They might be attracted to the idea as a means of simplifying supply and logistics - if the same gun design can do 3 jobs (heavy AA and AT as well as light artillery), that helps matters both in terms of maintenance and manufacture. So the idea comes back to Moscow and someone thinks enough of it to institute a study for a suitable weapon.
Then WW2 kicks off in 1939, and gives the project a bit more urgency.
In the end, three candidates for this are identified - the 76mm AA gun which is currently in service, the 85mm AA gun which is just about to enter service, and the German 88mm itself - a few examples were captured during the Spanish Civil War, and perhaps Communist sympathisers have got enough details out for the USSR to have a stab at constructing one themselves.
At first, it looks like the 76mm gun will win - it's a standard calibre already in the Red Army, which reduces the disruption of switching to it in three roles and means that the tooling and support network already exists, and it's thought to be capable of defeating the armour on any current tank. But in the Battle of France, the Char B1 and Matilda tanks prove to stand up well against the German AT weapons. It's obvious the Germans will have learnt from this experience, and AT weapons will have to get heavier as armour increases. For several months after the fall of France, discussion rages among the committee members overseeing this project: is it better to go ahead with the 76mm gun because it can be supplied sooner and in greater quantities, despite the fact it may not be adequate against the next generation of tanks; or should the 85mm be chosen for it's greater potential? A small but vocal minority holds out for as close to a direct copy of the German 88mm as Soviet industry can manage, but the 85mm is eventually chosen. There are two main reasons for this: firstly, production of the 76mm has already ceased and output of the 85mm is picking up as it takes over the medium/heavy AA role. Secondly, there just isn't time to reverse-engineer the 88mm and put it into production, especially since it would be duplicating the role of the 85mm. This leaves the 85mm selected by default, and the committee recommends that the numbers procured be significantly increased with the aim of standardising on this gun for all medium/heavy AT and AA, along with light artillery batteries.
By the end of 1940 the increased allocations are starting to reach their units - AA formations receive theirs first, but a few have reached AT gunners as well. As 1941 rolls on the numbers increase - a few artillery units are now equipped with the new weapon. But the re-equipment has not been completed before June 1941...
That very good, but what effect would it have on Operation Barbarossa and ww2 as a whole?
 
Soviet anti-tank weapons were fairly effective against German tanks on their own. The main reasons the '88 was commonly used was because German 37mm "door knockers" couldn't penetrate modern French and Soviet vehicles.
 
Soviet anti-tank weapons were fairly effective against German tanks on their own. The main reasons the '88 was commonly used was because German 37mm "door knockers" couldn't penetrate modern French and Soviet vehicles.
But what would the effect be of them acquiring one around 1935
 
That very good, but what effect would it have on Operation Barbarossa and ww2 as a whole?

To be honest, I can't see it having much effect on Barbarossa. The Soviet failures there were not the result of inadequate weaponry (although that certainly didn't help), instead the real issues seem to have been at the level of command and control. German tank losses may increase slightly as a result of more 85mm guns being present and being deployed further forward, but probably not enough to make much difference in that campaign. In general terms it makes German attacks somewhat more costly, but they'll learn from that pretty fast. Of course, depending on the butterflies, anything could happen... but I can't really speculate on that without knowing more.

What will probably happen first is that the development of German AFVs gets accelerated - The T-34 and KV-1 were nasty surprises for the Wehrmacht in any case, and ITTL they're running into more powerful guns as well. Increasing the level of protection on the panzers is going to be a matter of urgency, which will also spur the development of more powerful engines in order to move the increased weight. So we'll see the Tiger getting more use, an up-armoured PzIV, and perhaps an earlier Panther.
Over on the Soviet side, we might see a SU-85 or T-34/85 a bit earlier as well - the guns are available in greater numbers, and although the turret for the T-34 needs to be redesigned to accept the heavier gun and crew having already settled on a gun might speed things up a little. As the new German AFVs with heavier armour start to arrive on the Eastern Front, this will increase the pressure to come up with something able to take them on at relatively even terms. This probably takes us through 1942 and into early 1943.

In the longer term, it's harder to predict. There's a small chance it might shorten the war a little - if the Germans put more emphasis on heavy tanks they'll have fewer of them and they'll each need more in the way of resources, and the industrial effort devoted to them won't be available for other things. I can't see that making a huge difference, however.
It might have implications for the Western Front, though - if German tanks are more heavily armoured that might be enough to get the Sherman Firefly as the standard variant, and/or get the Centurion and M-26 rushed to the front to see action. Again, however, I can't see it making a huge difference.

What do you think the effects might be?
 
To be honest, I can't see it having much effect on Barbarossa. The Soviet failures there were not the result of inadequate weaponry (although that certainly didn't help), instead the real issues seem to have been at the level of command and control. German tank losses may increase slightly as a result of more 85mm guns being present and being deployed further forward, but probably not enough to make much difference in that campaign. In general terms it makes German attacks somewhat more costly, but they'll learn from that pretty fast. Of course, depending on the butterflies, anything could happen... but I can't really speculate on that without knowing more.

What will probably happen first is that the development of German AFVs gets accelerated - The T-34 and KV-1 were nasty surprises for the Wehrmacht in any case, and ITTL they're running into more powerful guns as well. Increasing the level of protection on the panzers is going to be a matter of urgency, which will also spur the development of more powerful engines in order to move the increased weight. So we'll see the Tiger getting more use, an up-armoured PzIV, and perhaps an earlier Panther.
Over on the Soviet side, we might see a SU-85 or T-34/85 a bit earlier as well - the guns are available in greater numbers, and although the turret for the T-34 needs to be redesigned to accept the heavier gun and crew having already settled on a gun might speed things up a little. As the new German AFVs with heavier armour start to arrive on the Eastern Front, this will increase the pressure to come up with something able to take them on at relatively even terms. This probably takes us through 1942 and into early 1943.

In the longer term, it's harder to predict. There's a small chance it might shorten the war a little - if the Germans put more emphasis on heavy tanks they'll have fewer of them and they'll each need more in the way of resources, and the industrial effort devoted to them won't be available for other things. I can't see that making a huge difference, however.
It might have implications for the Western Front, though - if German tanks are more heavily armoured that might be enough to get the Sherman Firefly as the standard variant, and/or get the Centurion and M-26 rushed to the front to see action. Again, however, I can't see it making a huge difference.

What do you think the effects might be?
The siege of Kiev turning into a early Stalingrad, a successful second battle(for the soviets) of Kharkov, the battle of Leningrad becoming much shorter with a soviet victory. On the western front a stillborn Normandy maybe post war soviet eastern France Free Western France. the soviets selling the design to china maybe no ROC on Taiwan. The Chinese selling it to the Koreans ending in a (communist) unified Korea.
 
early soviet big bangers

The soviets worked on Shellproff tanks in the late 30s, probably as a result of their experiences with T26 and BT5 tanks action in Spain and against the japanese. They fully expected other nations to build much heavier tanks, and when a delegation visited the german factories they refused to belive the germans had nothing heavier than the PzIV in production. They might have known of the projected VK6501 "Breakthrough" Infantry sipport tank, and having the KV1 they expected other to have similar tanks soon. They tried out several heavier guns, including the 107mm high velocity field Gun on a enlarged KV chassis and a prototype KV with a 85mm AA gun in 1941. All soviet guns up to the M1937 152mm Gun/Howitzer had AT ammo avaiable, and the first model of the 57mm AT gun was developed. (they were toying with the idea of naval 130mm guns on tank destroyers in 1941)
At the start of the war they found out that existing 45mm AT guns and 76,2mm Field Guns could knock out germans Tanks, and that the expected heavies failed to materialize.when the Germns did introduce a heavy tank, the 57mm was rushed back into production, and the 85mm was (re)introduced as a tank gun.
Bottom line is, the Soviets saw the AT potencial of their 85mm AA gun early on, didn't exploited it german style because there was no need, exploited it later.
The advantages of the german 88 over the russian 85 are too marginal for a russian 88 to have been a game changer.
 
The Soviet 76mm piece could destroy all German tanks up to the Panzer 4 at 500 meters which was fine

The problem was that the 76 couldn't penetrate tigers and panthers frontally, but guess what the 85 or german 88 couldn't do it either, even at close range... Otto Carius Tiger was hit by one of the other tigers in his company by accident at 250 meters and the round didn't penetrate

regardless their doctrine had to evolve around swarming and going for side and rear shots... at 500 meters the 76 could shoot through both sides of a panther and kill it no problem

even the 152mm mega assault guns are documented as to have not been able to penetrate tigers frontally, even at fairly close range
 
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