What if Singapore Had not fallen?

Would they ever have done that?

I've very limited knowledge of naval matters, but I've read that Admiral King loathed the UK with a passion, so wouldn't the attitude have been "Yeah, fuck the Brits, and the more Japanese that are stationed away from the US theatre of operations the better."

King's Anglophobia is a bit over blown. OTL he was willing to have USS WASP run Spitfires to Malta (twice) and have major fleet units like WASP, USS RANGER, USS WASHINGTON, and USS WICHITA assigned to the Home Fleet for a good chunk of the first half of 1942.

Later in the war he also had USS SARATOGA sent to the Indian Ocean to operate with the Eastern Fleet. Yes I know she was a bit of a second line unit by then.
 
Lets say Singapore/Malaya holds - post war, what is the impact on the British Empire? It was the fall of Singapore that lay Britians weakness to bare, was it not? Does this delay the fall of the empire at all - or what shape decolinzation may take?
 
Sumatra needs to hold as well, but if Malaya/Singapore was doing better that shouldn't be too difficult to arrange.
Indeed. Bog down the IJA in Malaya and Sumatra is safe, as the IJA only has so much. But if the IJA is at the gates of Singapore, Sumatra is lost.
Is there a basic list anywhere of the various units the Japanese used in their landings and invasions in Southeast Asia? By that I mean something along the lines of Nth Division took part in Landing X, was then transferred over to participate in Landing Y, then follow-up Battle Z? Since the Japanese really pushed their luck, many descriptions use the phrase run on a shoestring, transferring units around after successful operations to take part in following ones elsewhere being able to look up who fought where and when would make it easier to try and figure out if a local invasion were defeated or seriously delayed then what later operations are also going to be affected.


Lets say Singapore/Malaya holds - post war, what is the impact on the British Empire? It was the fall of Singapore that lay Britians weakness to bare, was it not? Does this delay the fall of the empire at all - or what shape decolinzation may take?
In the region? Probably not all that much. Aside from India, including Pakistan, plus Ceylon and Burma the following year since they were all effectively a package deal, most of the Southeast Asia and Pacific colonies didn't really gain independence until the 1960s and 1970s in our timeline anyway. Hell, Brunei didn't achieve full independence until 1980. Malaya was the first after the subcontinent to leave in 1957 so that might be stretched out a bit until the early 1960s, and you might see more of a military presence remaining in Singapore for longer, at least until the need for defence cutbacks start, but I don't think anything major. Depending on what happens with Sarawak there might be enough changes to see it remain independent but that's a bit iffy in my opinion.
 
Sorry for not responding, been with the flu here in Colombia and been in bed for the last couple of days feeling better today will try two answer today
 
Is there a basic list anywhere of the various units the Japanese used in their landings and invasions in Southeast Asia? By that I mean something along the lines of Nth Division took part in Landing X, was then transferred over to participate in Landing Y, then follow-up Battle Z? Since the Japanese really pushed their luck, many descriptions use the phrase run on a shoestring, transferring units around after successful operations to take part in following ones elsewhere being able to look up who fought where and when would make it easier to try and figure out if a local invasion were defeated or seriously delayed then what later operations are also going to be affected.

........snip.......

I don't know, but you do see it in ship or unit deployments on the likes of Wiki, so you can piece it together. For example the HMS Exeter and HMAS Perth (I think, maybe Hobart) arrived in Singapore within days of Force Z sailing to its doom, these two forces make a mockery of the whole 'the British didn't send a fleet' myth.
 
To Cryhavoc101

Great Post by MARK GRIMSLEY

Just one small thing I noticed - moving US Marines from China to Singapore

I believe that the 'China Marines' had already been moved to the Philippines in late Nov 1941 with the exception of a couple of Hundred Legation Guard Marines who were in the process of evacuation on 7th Dec when their ship was captured.

These Marines formed the core of the 4th Marine Rgt (less than half of the Rgt personnel were US Marines and the whole unit made up from multiple units including Filipino soldiers and USN) - so I don't think these could be diverted to Malaya or if they could function in anything more than a light infantry if they did (By all accounts despite this it still fought well!) unless I've misunderstood the authors intention.


If you read the article that wrote Eric C. Johnson it explains why the 4th Marine Regiment was moved to Singapore. In the real life the 4th marine regiment arrived in the Philippines on December 5, 1941 and not in November. The troop transport ship USS Harrison left on December 6, 1941 to pick up the rest of the marines at a chinese port near Shanghai. On December 9, 1941 it was intercepted by japanese naval ship off Hong Kong meaning that the remaining marine did not leave China. Also the 4th Marine Regiment was made up of all Americans and not filipinos The 45th and 57th infantry regiment were mix of american troops with filipino scouts. :)
 
King's Anglophobia is a bit over blown. OTL he was willing to have USS WASP run Spitfires to Malta (twice) and have major fleet units like WASP, USS RANGER, USS WASHINGTON, and USS WICHITA assigned to the Home Fleet for a good chunk of the first half of 1942.

Later in the war he also had USS SARATOGA sent to the Indian Ocean to operate with the Eastern Fleet. Yes I know she was a bit of a second line unit by then.

He was anglophobia from the start of WW2. In real time he was order by the president to send these ships to help the british navy. This occur after December 7, 1941 when the USA enters the war. The Wasp participated in April was well as the rest of the other ships. The Saratoga participated with the Eastern Fleet was because it was teaching the british how to operate as a carrier force.
 
Lets say Singapore/Malaya holds - post war, what is the impact on the British Empire? It was the fall of Singapore that lay Britians weakness to bare, was it not? Does this delay the fall of the empire at all - or what shape decolinzation may take?

Well lets say Sinagpore/Malaya holds what happens in the post war? Well two scenerio could happen: First Malaya would be a Dominion commonwealth meaning it would not have a president but a prime minister and the queen would be its ruler. Also Singapore could be the capital of Malaya and not Kuala Lumpar.
Second Malaya would still ask for its independence but Singapore would be a Dominion commonwealth and maybe get more land. (MAYBE) The fall of Singapore brought problems between Australia and New Zealand with Britain because Britain couldn't provide help with military support. That why both countries became much closer with the United States.
 
I don't know, but you do see it in ship or unit deployments on the likes of Wiki, so you can piece it together. For example the HMS Exeter and HMAS Perth (I think, maybe Hobart) arrived in Singapore within days of Force Z sailing to its doom, these two forces make a mockery of the whole 'the British didn't send a fleet' myth.


The Heavy Cruiser HMS Exeter arrived 6 hours at Sinagpore after Force Z was sunk. The Light Cruiser HMAS Perth was escorting ships from Perth to Jakarta then head for Singapore which she arrived December 12, 1941. HMAS Hobart was transiting through the red sea. At Singapore were the modern light cruiser HMS Mauritius which was getting a refit in her boilers and old light cruisers HMS Dragon which was also in refit and HMS Danae. The Dutch cruiser Java arrived at Singapore 8 hours after the sinking of Force Z.
 
About Force Z

In the story written by Eric C. Johnson I saw that HMS Mauritius participated with Force Z but lets say that HMS Exeter arrives early and joins Force Z what would be the out come?
 
Brilliantly done! The ebb and flow of success for each side is handled very well. I think the basic point is very well-taken: that the Japanese plan was extremely aggressive and very dependent on cascading successes, and would have foundered if it had ever lost impetus.

But... the European chronology is way too advanced. There is no way that the Allies could stage a major amphibious operation in North Africa in June. It took all they could do to manage one by November. August would be the earliest practical date. This would be especially true if the Allies also attempted amphibious ops in the Eastern Med.

The point about Madagascar is well taken.

However, French sentiment would be much more favorable if the Allies were successful at Gazala instead of being routed into Egypt. And the chain of logistical knock-ons in the Western Desert is an outstanding bit of analysis.

But BRIMSTONE in September 1942 is utter fantasy. It was a major stretch for the Allies to do TORCH in November against minimal French resistance. Corsica and Sardinia would be substantially more distant; surprise would be impossible because (unlike the French) the Axis would have serious air power in place, and recon patrols out; since this is months after TORCH there would be German forces stiffening the Italians, and the Italians would not be as demoralized as they were in Sicily in 1943 OTL; and finally, the few carriers available to the Allies would be inadequate to neutralize Axis airpower. OTL HUSKY was covered by air from nearby Malta; Sardinia is barely in reach of air cover from North Africa. (The three hundred mile round trip from base reduces loiter time by 2/3 or so.)

Getting back to Malaya though. ISTM that Japan would respond to failure there with major strategic redirection. Rabaul and even Burma are not important compared to Singapore. Quite possibly the carrier Striking Force would be called in to crush Allied air power in the theater. Allied Singapore threatens the oil supplies from Sumatra and Borneo, and that is simply intolerable. Japan must secure the South China Sea, or give up the war.

Another point: if Japan controls south Thailand, northern Malaya, Borneo, and SE Sumatra, Singapore is cut off. I simply cannot accept significant Allied reinforcements or supplies running the gauntlet of the Strait of Malacce under Japanese air attack.

Finally - this would have been much clearer with a map or three. I know maps are a lot of work, but I found myself skimming over a lot of the narrative because I couldn't make sense of the details.

P.S. It would have been optimal for the U.S. to send the China Marines and other stuff to Singapore, but no way. The Philippines needed everything they could get, and sending U.S. troops to a British theater instead would not even occur to anybody. I don't even think the British would want them - they were overconfident OTL, and here they have a lot more troops. Also - these being Marines would be under the ultimate control of Admiral King, and he wouldn't like this at all.

Still in all, a spectacular work.
 
Brilliantly done! The ebb and flow of success for each side is handled very well. I think the basic point is very well-taken: that the Japanese plan was extremely aggressive and very dependent on cascading successes, and would have foundered if it had ever lost impetus.

But... the European chronology is way too advanced. There is no way that the Allies could stage a major amphibious operation in North Africa in June. It took all they could do to manage one by November. August would be the earliest practical date. This would be especially true if the Allies also attempted amphibious ops in the Eastern Med.

The point about Madagascar is well taken.

However, French sentiment would be much more favorable if the Allies were successful at Gazala instead of being routed into Egypt. And the chain of logistical knock-ons in the Western Desert is an outstanding bit of analysis.

But BRIMSTONE in September 1942 is utter fantasy. It was a major stretch for the Allies to do TORCH in November against minimal French resistance. Corsica and Sardinia would be substantially more distant; surprise would be impossible because (unlike the French) the Axis would have serious air power in place, and recon patrols out; since this is months after TORCH there would be German forces stiffening the Italians, and the Italians would not be as demoralized as they were in Sicily in 1943 OTL; and finally, the few carriers available to the Allies would be inadequate to neutralize Axis airpower. OTL HUSKY was covered by air from nearby Malta; Sardinia is barely in reach of air cover from North Africa. (The three hundred mile round trip from base reduces loiter time by 2/3 or so.)

Getting back to Malaya though. ISTM that Japan would respond to failure there with major strategic redirection. Rabaul and even Burma are not important compared to Singapore. Quite possibly the carrier Striking Force would be called in to crush Allied air power in the theater. Allied Singapore threatens the oil supplies from Sumatra and Borneo, and that is simply intolerable. Japan must secure the South China Sea, or give up the war.

Another point: if Japan controls south Thailand, northern Malaya, Borneo, and SE Sumatra, Singapore is cut off. I simply cannot accept significant Allied reinforcements or supplies running the gauntlet of the Strait of Malacce under Japanese air attack.

Finally - this would have been much clearer with a map or three. I know maps are a lot of work, but I found myself skimming over a lot of the narrative because I couldn't make sense of the details.

P.S. It would have been optimal for the U.S. to send the China Marines and other stuff to Singapore, but no way. The Philippines needed everything they could get, and sending U.S. troops to a British theater instead would not even occur to anybody. I don't even think the British would want them - they were overconfident OTL, and here they have a lot more troops. Also - these being Marines would be under the ultimate control of Admiral King, and he wouldn't like this at all.

Still in all, a spectacular work.

I agree with you in all except one thing. The map, I tried to contact with the writer about the map but he said that maps are dificult to do so he just imagination. About the U.S. Marines you need to know in real time they were under the command of Admiral Thomas C. Hart not Admiral King.
 
Also I was wondering if HMS Exeter would have arrived early like on the morning of December 7, 1941 Force Z would get a second cruiser to support it, then the battle would by much better for the british :D
 
I am Eric C Johnson, the author of the short story. I am deeply grateful for the compliments it received; to Logan 2879 for posting it; and especially to the grandfather of kaymay. I grew up dumb, fat and happy in the United States because of his generation.

Of course, all mistakes and errors in this story are mine, and mine alone. I was not aware of the existence of this site until a few days ago, and hope that my comments actually do reach the parties who have posted their excellent comments. My greatest regret is that I have not actually been to Southeast Asia, and therefore have not actually done a terrain walk.

As for the use of maps, I do not know which author Logan 2879 contacted regarding maps, but it was not me. I did not upload maps with my original posting in 2014, because I could not find a mechanism for doing so. I used primarily National Geographic maps of Second World War vintage, and Google Earth for topography around Kota Bharu, Taiping and Hat Yai. This brings up a larger issue of sources that I used, and there are hundreds. Among the best are Ned Wilmott’s “Empires in the Balance” (which has general campaign maps); His Majesty’s Stationary Office (HMSO) Official Histories of the Second World War (which includes military, naval and air orders of battle as well as maps); and the George Nafziger Order of Battle series.

With regard to specific issues raised by the contributors, and I do indeed appreciate every comment:

Logan 2879 is correct that the 4th Marine Regiment belonged to ADM Hart, and not to ADM King or LTG MacArthur in the Philippines. MacArthur did not bother to request operational control of 4th Marine Regiment until 20 December 1941, he certainly would have made no objections prior to the arrival of the regiment from Shanghai. ADM Hart had been attempting to withdraw the Marines from China ever since the Japanese occupied Tonkin in September 1940, but the State Department insisted they remain to protect U.S. diplomatic interests; and the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) ADM Betty Stark was unwilling to support Hart against Secretary of State Cordell Hull. Ironically, Hart’s 1 September 1941 request was rejected on the grounds that a withdrawal would be viewed as a sign of weakness since the British still maintained four battalions in Hong Kong. (A British pullout, as I postulate in my analysis, would likely sway the CNO.)

ADM Hart responded by holding all replacements for the China Marines in the Philippines, and by December 1941 the Marines at Shanghai had dwindled to 44 officers, 728 enlisted and 32 USN radio and medical personnel. There were also 8 officers, 142 enlisted and four USN personnel assigned to the North China Marine Force, nominally a part of 4th Marine Regiment; and also starved of replacements by Hart. This allowed Hart to form the 1st Separate Marine Battalion at Cavite Naval Station with 23 officers and 609 enlisted personnel. Three officers and 119 enlisted were detailed to Corregidor and Ft Drum on anti-aircraft/beach defense duties, while the remainder of the battalion were assigned both anti-aircraft and infantry duties at Cavite. On 1 January 1942, 1st Separate Marine Battalion was redesignated 3rd Battalion/4th Marines. (See History of U.S. Marine Corps Operations in World War II; Volume I; Pearl Harbor to Guadalcanal; Parts II and IV.)

ADM Hart also had the USMC Barracks at Subic Bay available. I am not sure how many personnel were assigned, three officers and 73 enlisted were the normal complement. (One source that I cannot find now, stated there were 310.) But when the Shanghai Marines arrived on 30 November and 1 December 1941, Col Samuel Howard was able to reform Headquarters and Service Company by adding eight officers and 183 enlisted men to the six officers and 69 enlisted contained in his small command group in Shanghai, which were organized primarily as two machine gun platoons. He was also able to add at least one platoon to each of his four line companies (A, B, E and H) in his 1st and 2nd Battalions. This suggests a far larger number of Marines at Subic Bay than 76.

USMC Barracks at Subic Bay, and the USMC Barracks at Cavite existed because under US Law, US Naval bases overseas were required to have a USMC guard force. This was the reason for USMC Barracks at Guantanamo Bay, Rodman Naval Station in Panama, Pearl Harbor, etc. Thus, if ADM Hart (who first sought use of Singapore in April 1941) succeeded in securing permission from the CNO to move the Asiatic Fleet Support Train to Singapore, Hart was required by law to send a force of Marines to act as a base defense force; to prevent theft and pilfering of US Naval stores, fuel or other materiel, and provide a disciplinary force to the USN commanders. (Approval by President Roosevelt would not be difficult. Roosevelt was seeking the use of as many overseas bases as possible – they were a part of the Destroyers for Bases Agreement of August 1940, and Lend-Lease Law in March 1941. CNO Stark appears to be the obstacle – apparently more from overwork, lack of time, and unwillingness to fight the State Department than from actual strong opinions.)

Thus the question is not whether USMC personnel are sent to Singapore, but how many? For that answer I looked at the three supply routes to the Philippines calculated by the authors of Rainbow 5, the current US war plan. The traditional route across the Central Pacific via Midway, Wake and Guam was rejected as too hazardous. The other two routes, from the West Coast via Hawaii, Samoa, Australia, Java and Borneo; and from the East Coast via Trinidad, Cape Town, Ceylon and Singapore were considered to be equal in capability. Although significantly longer, the Indian Ocean route did not require transcontinental movement of supplies by rail, and less zig-zagging between South Africa and Ceylon allowed for greater distance per hour by a convoy.

ADM Hart was responsible for the final approaches to the Philippines, respectively from Java on and from Singapore on. Since Subic Bay is evacuated, and Cavite reduced to a forward repair capability, I believe that Hart would only keep the 1st Separate Marine Battalion from being sent to Singapore. With the prevailing myth of “Fortress Singapore”, this is more attractive contribution to Rainbow 5 than parceling the Marines out on undefended Dutch islands. This decision would be made prior to Pearl Harbor, and would not anticipate the annihilation of the USN Battle Fleet.
 
I am Eric C Johnson, the author of the short story. I am deeply grateful for the compliments it received; to Logan 2879 for posting it; and especially to the grandfather of kaymay. I grew up dumb, fat and happy in the United States because of his generation.

Of course, all mistakes and errors in this story are mine, and mine alone. I was not aware of the existence of this site until a few days ago, and hope that my comments actually do reach the parties who have posted their excellent comments. My greatest regret is that I have not actually been to Southeast Asia, and therefore have not actually done a terrain walk.

As for the use of maps, I do not know which author Logan 2879 contacted regarding maps, but it was not me. I did not upload maps with my original posting in 2014, because I could not find a mechanism for doing so. I used primarily National Geographic maps of Second World War vintage, and Google Earth for topography around Kota Bharu, Taiping and Hat Yai. This brings up a larger issue of sources that I used, and there are hundreds. Among the best are Ned Wilmott’s “Empires in the Balance” (which has general campaign maps); His Majesty’s Stationary Office (HMSO) Official Histories of the Second World War (which includes military, naval and air orders of battle as well as maps); and the George Nafziger Order of Battle series.

With regard to specific issues raised by the contributors, and I do indeed appreciate every comment:

Logan 2879 is correct that the 4th Marine Regiment belonged to ADM Hart, and not to ADM King or LTG MacArthur in the Philippines. MacArthur did not bother to request operational control of 4th Marine Regiment until 20 December 1941, he certainly would have made no objections prior to the arrival of the regiment from Shanghai. ADM Hart had been attempting to withdraw the Marines from China ever since the Japanese occupied Tonkin in September 1940, but the State Department insisted they remain to protect U.S. diplomatic interests; and the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) ADM Betty Stark was unwilling to support Hart against Secretary of State Cordell Hull. Ironically, Hart’s 1 September 1941 request was rejected on the grounds that a withdrawal would be viewed as a sign of weakness since the British still maintained four battalions in Hong Kong. (A British pullout, as I postulate in my analysis, would likely sway the CNO.)

ADM Hart responded by holding all replacements for the China Marines in the Philippines, and by December 1941 the Marines at Shanghai had dwindled to 44 officers, 728 enlisted and 32 USN radio and medical personnel. There were also 8 officers, 142 enlisted and four USN personnel assigned to the North China Marine Force, nominally a part of 4th Marine Regiment; and also starved of replacements by Hart. This allowed Hart to form the 1st Separate Marine Battalion at Cavite Naval Station with 23 officers and 609 enlisted personnel. Three officers and 119 enlisted were detailed to Corregidor and Ft Drum on anti-aircraft/beach defense duties, while the remainder of the battalion were assigned both anti-aircraft and infantry duties at Cavite. On 1 January 1942, 1st Separate Marine Battalion was redesignated 3rd Battalion/4th Marines. (See History of U.S. Marine Corps Operations in World War II; Volume I; Pearl Harbor to Guadalcanal; Parts II and IV.)

ADM Hart also had the USMC Barracks at Subic Bay available. I am not sure how many personnel were assigned, three officers and 73 enlisted were the normal complement. (One source that I cannot find now, stated there were 310.) But when the Shanghai Marines arrived on 30 November and 1 December 1941, Col Samuel Howard was able to reform Headquarters and Service Company by adding eight officers and 183 enlisted men to the six officers and 69 enlisted contained in his small command group in Shanghai, which were organized primarily as two machine gun platoons. He was also able to add at least one platoon to each of his four line companies (A, B, E and H) in his 1st and 2nd Battalions. This suggests a far larger number of Marines at Subic Bay than 76.

USMC Barracks at Subic Bay, and the USMC Barracks at Cavite existed because under US Law, US Naval bases overseas were required to have a USMC guard force. This was the reason for USMC Barracks at Guantanamo Bay, Rodman Naval Station in Panama, Pearl Harbor, etc. Thus, if ADM Hart (who first sought use of Singapore in April 1941) succeeded in securing permission from the CNO to move the Asiatic Fleet Support Train to Singapore, Hart was required by law to send a force of Marines to act as a base defense force; to prevent theft and pilfering of US Naval stores, fuel or other materiel, and provide a disciplinary force to the USN commanders. (Approval by President Roosevelt would not be difficult. Roosevelt was seeking the use of as many overseas bases as possible – they were a part of the Destroyers for Bases Agreement of August 1940, and Lend-Lease Law in March 1941. CNO Stark appears to be the obstacle – apparently more from overwork, lack of time, and unwillingness to fight the State Department than from actual strong opinions.)

Thus the question is not whether USMC personnel are sent to Singapore, but how many? For that answer I looked at the three supply routes to the Philippines calculated by the authors of Rainbow 5, the current US war plan. The traditional route across the Central Pacific via Midway, Wake and Guam was rejected as too hazardous. The other two routes, from the West Coast via Hawaii, Samoa, Australia, Java and Borneo; and from the East Coast via Trinidad, Cape Town, Ceylon and Singapore were considered to be equal in capability. Although significantly longer, the Indian Ocean route did not require transcontinental movement of supplies by rail, and less zig-zagging between South Africa and Ceylon allowed for greater distance per hour by a convoy.

ADM Hart was responsible for the final approaches to the Philippines, respectively from Java on and from Singapore on. Since Subic Bay is evacuated, and Cavite reduced to a forward repair capability, I believe that Hart would only keep the 1st Separate Marine Battalion from being sent to Singapore. With the prevailing myth of “Fortress Singapore”, this is more attractive contribution to Rainbow 5 than parceling the Marines out on undefended Dutch islands. This decision would be made prior to Pearl Harbor, and would not anticipate the annihilation of the USN Battle Fleet.

Eric welcome on board and thanx to your story I am doing my own alternate time line. Now about the maps I didn't find any or couldn`t get any maps but hey at this point it doesn't matter. Also I was doing some research and I was asking myself could more fighter and bomber squadrons from England or the Empire could have arrived at Singapore? As well as tanks which the Cruiser Mk IV (A13MkII) could have been sent since they were phase out by 1941? Other then that maybe Singapore could have been save in time.
 
Eric welcome on board and thanx to your story I am doing my own alternate time line. Now about the maps I didn't find any or couldn`t get any maps but hey at this point it doesn't matter. Also I was doing some research and I was asking myself could more fighter and bomber squadrons from England or the Empire could have arrived at Singapore? As well as tanks which the Cruiser Mk IV (A13MkII) could have been sent since they were phase out by 1941? Other then that maybe Singapore could have been save in time.

One of my PODs that I must get down on paper is Ark Royal Joining Illustrious for Op Judgement - with about 30 additional Torpedo planes and a dozen (or 2 dozen?) Skuas effectively Sextupliting the potential number of Torpedo carrying aircraft (in the OTL Op Judgement a number of the 21 Swordfish were used as flare carriers and dive bombers reducing the number of planes going after the Battleships to about half) - in this example the 24 most experienced crews go after the post treaty Littorio and Vittorio Veneto with Torps and the remaining 26 odd going after the older refitted Battleships.

My reasoning for this is when the FAA attacked the Richelieu they managed 1 torpedo hit with 6 aircraft and concluded that at least 2 hits are required for the modern battleships to be disabled properly - which is why they Bring the Ark Royal into Lysters plan in order to ensure enough torpedoes are launched at each target. (OTL they thought that 1 hit was enough - the POD here is they want at least 2 hits per modern ship)

Meanwhile the Skuas are tasked with flare dropping and then dive bombing the heavy Crusiers in the outer basin.

Wellingtons are then tasked with bombing the Fuel storage and Amphibian plane base 30 minutes after the 2nd wave!

What has all of this to do with Malaya I hear you ask. Well quite a lot really.

Having really done a number on all of the Italian ships at Taranto - getting more than the 1 in 6 hits they expected on the battleships resulting in the Littorio and Vittorio Veneto never going to sea again and damaging or sinking all of the heavy Cruisers as well as badly degrading ports ability to support a fleet - gives the British a much greater 'sense' of freedom in the Med meaning that they feel much more able to reinforce Malta and run supplies through the med.

This has 3 knock on effects.

Earlier use of Malta to more effectively interdict supplies to North Africa - using aircraft, Destroyers/ Crusiers (Force K) and Submarines (which AB Cunningham wanted in place by April 1941) - historically this would have required about 40 odd supply ships - in OTL only 16 were sent between Nov 1940 and April 41 - and none were attacked! Greater interdiction of Axis supplies might make Sonnenblume less powerful or slower to build up to. In fact given the destruction of the Italian capital ships and perceived loss of control of the Med the Africa Korps might not be sent at all?

More timely arrival of reinforcements to Egypt from Britain would also allow for a greater chance of a fast win in North Africa / East Africa - and the knock on effect of this is more troops and Aircraft available in other theatres.

Had a couple of the Premier Australian or Indian (or British or NZ) Divisions been freed up earlier as a result and made available (maybe through pressure from the Australian Government given the events by the Japanese in French Indo China?) for Garrison duties in Malaya. 6 Additional Brigades from the first Team with 2 very experienced Divisional HQs and supporting regiments are going to make quite a difference. Might even be able to send some armour!

Of course with no Italian Battleships - fewer RN assets are required at both ends of the Med! Freeing them up for other duties.
 
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It would have a profound effect on the mentality of Singaporeans after the war. The feel of urgent need for Merdeka, or independence, would be much less. An independent Singapore would be less obsessed with building up a strong military, and more content with the mere presence of Anglo-American troops. The post-war social upheaval would also be less likely. As a result, Singapore might become a more liberal democracy.
 
Many thanks for the warm welcome; one and all !!!

The comments made by Anarch King of Dipsodes, Overlord of All Thirst also deserve a lengthy explanation. Literally taken, his statement “There is no way that the Allies could stage a major amphibious operation in North Africa in June” is correct. I used the term Operation Torch, which is more familiar than its predecessor plan, Operation Gymnast. Operation Gymnast was approved at the joint British-American Arcadia Conference in Washington DC, in December 1941. President Roosevelt ordered its execution in January 1942, and the invasion date was set as 16 June at that time. Gymnast was not an ALLIED operation, but was allocated only US troops. Gymnast did not target the more heavily defended objectives of Oran and Algiers. Gymnast was postponed in late April 1942 in favor of the much larger scale Operation Torch. It was the British, not the American components that required delay in order to assemble shipping. The American shipping assembled for Gymnast was actually used to send all of 1st U.S. Armored Division to Great Britain, plus additional ground crews for the USAAF. (Note: This shipping was then sent to the Pacific to support Operation Shoestring – the invasion of Guadalcanal in August 1942 – and then returned to the Atlantic for Torch in November 1942.) With this in mind, a rereading of my analysis may make more sense.

“Another probable side benefit from holding Malaya is an earlier, albeit smaller scale execution of Operation Torch. Torch originated from President Roosevelt’s fear that the Japanese use of Vichy French Indochina to attack American would be replicated by the Germans or (to a lesser degree) Italians in the French West Indies and French West Africa to threaten American interests in Latin America. It was opposed by General Marshall, as a sideshow from opening a Second Front in France, and endorsed by the British for that very reason.

“Launched on 16 June 1942 to seize positions from Northern Morocco south to Dakar utilizing Combat Command B of 1st U.S. Armored Division, 1st and 34th U.S. Infantry Divisions, 2nd U.S. Cavalry Division (with only 9th and 10th U.S. Cavalry Regiments – the remainder remained at Ft Riley KS as cadre for 9th U.S. Armored Division), and the French speaking 156th U.S. Infantry Regt from the Louisiana National Guard. The entire invasion, including USAAF aircraft and temporarily naval assets, is commanded by LTG Dwight D Eisenhower, with MG George Patton’s I U.S. Armored Corps as ground force. Once control of Vichy French bases on the Atlantic Coast is obtained, Patton’s troops will advance rapidly into Algeria against opposition strong enough to secure political and military honor, but insufficient to exceed the level of resistance given the Japanese in French Indochina or to provoke an American declaration of war.”

It should be noted, that the forces allocated to Morocco (one armored combat command, elements of two infantry divisions) are identical in combat strength to those actually employed during Operation Torch with the addition of two horse cavalry regiments. With a substitution of battleship USS Washington (at Scapa Flow March-August 1942) for USS Massachusetts, US Navy escort and covering forces are identical to the historical strength. I therefore anticipate a similar outcome to the historical. The follow-on arrival of USAAF P-40 aircraft would be reduced in number, as only two, not four escort carriers are available. The difference would have to be made up by merchant ships carrying crated P-40s to India during the same time frame.

The French defenses at Senegal were negligible. The garrison consisting of the 1st and 7th Colonial Senegalese Regiments backed by a single battalion of Colonial French soldiers had atrophied in equipment, training and logistics since becoming isolated in September 1940. Other than coastal defense guns, the French had no artillery. The 25 Curtiss Hawk 75A fighters were also devoid of spares, only three were still operational in November 1942, and the nine Potez 63 reconnaissance planes and 12 Dewoitine 510 fighters ceased flying by the end of 1941. US troops would land well out of range of the three operational 15-inch guns of battleship FS Richelieu. A reinforced regiment landing on the excellent beaches at Rufisque and two additional battalions at Port St Louis is an ample force. If not, two brigades of British West African Colonial troops were available in Gambia to assist. I therefore conclude that an American-only invasion limited to only the Atlantic Coast region of French North Africa is likely to succeed.

An understanding of GEN Marshall’s reaction to the postponement of Gymnast and the cancellation of Operation Sledgehammer (an invasion of France in 1942) is very enlightening. In June 1942, Marshall sent two divisions slated for early deployment to Europe, the 40th and 43rd U.S. Infantry Divisions to the Southwest Pacific, and ordered the 2nd U.S. Cavalry Division broken up. In January 1943, when the Casablanca Conference postponed the Normandy invasion until 1944, Marshall released the 1st U.S. Cavalry and 6th, 7th, 31st, 33rd and 38th U.S. Infantry Divisions to the Pacific. With the exception of 7th US Infantry Division, none of these eight divisions made it into combat before 1944 in order to fully reconfigure and retrain from European tactics to those suitable for the Pacific. It is my assessment that with Malaya stabilized in June 1942 and US troops engaged in combat in North Africa, probably only one of these divisions (43rd – to New Zealand), already trained for combat in Europe would be diverted to the Pacific; and possibly none.

I postulate the IJN would never reach Guadalcanal in May 1942 if Singapore were held. Therefore there is no need to send transport ships to the South Pacific and back. Instead in July and early August 1942, they would bring the remainder of 1st U.S. Armored Division and II U.S. Corps (Probably 6th, 31st and 40th U.S. Infantry Divisions) to complete the conquest of Algeria and meet the British Eighth Army in Tunisia. Attention would then turn to the final steps in reopening the Mediterranean to Allied shipping, because an end to lengthy convoys via the Cape of Good Hope to Egypt is a key to sustaining the supply lines to Singapore.

The first option, Operation Husky is the one I would apply the words of Anarch King of Dipsodes, Overlord of All Thirst to. An invasion of Sicily would be pure fantasy. Sicily had at least nine major airfields capable of supporting some 600 aircraft. Its supply routes were well protected – from Reggio on the Italian “toe” to Messina the distance is only 11 nautical miles. Unpowered barges carrying tanks and towed by tugs made the trip in less than three hours at night. Palermo and Syracuse were less than 12 hours by coastal steamer. Although Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica were all the responsibility of the Italian armed forces, most German troops evacuated from North Africa went to Sicily. The Italian garrison in Sicily contained one of the few Italian armored divisions. Although Malta (and after its capture) Pantelleria provided fighter cover for the invasion of Sicily, most Allied air power was aboard aircraft carriers, with distant support from air bases in Tunisia and Libya, both over 200 miles away from invasion beaches at Gela and Syracuse.

Sardinia, on the other hand, contained only two major airfields, and two large seaplane bases. They were capable of supporting about one-third the aircraft of those on Sicily. The air bases, near Cagliari and Alghero were on the opposite side of the island from the Italian mainland, and vulnerable to attacks from naval vessels – as early as 1940, Force H had bombarded Cagliari with 15-inch guns from HMS Renown. They were about 170 to 200 miles away from air bases in eastern Algeria and Tunisia. Sardinia was about 200 nautical miles away from supply ports at Naples and La Spezia across waters largely controlled by British submarines. From a logistical point of view, Sardinia was a liability.

These logistical constraints were reflected in the composition of the Italian garrison. Near Cagliari are the locally recruited XIII Italian Corps’ 30th Saubauda Infantry Division inland and the 205th Coastal Division on the unprepared beaches. Most troops were fed and often housed by their families. In the north was the XXX Italian Corps headquarters, which had scarcely recovered from near destruction in Tunisia. The 204th Coastal Division like the 205th in the south was a local conscript formation devoid of horse transport, artillery larger than mortars, or engineers. Although recruited from the same local forces and badly equipped, the excellent leadership of the 31st Calabria Infantry Division gave it a better chance of good performance in combat. The only combat unit from outside Sardinia, the 47th Bari Infantry Division did not arrive from Greece until April of 1943.

The American invasion forces would likely consist of V U.S. Corps HQ (sent to Great Britain in October 1942) and CCA/2nd U.S Armored Division; 7th and 9th U.S. Infantry Divisions in the initial assault and 38th U.S. Infantry Division as a second echelon. Along with 3rd Infantry Division, the 7th underwent extensive amphibious warfare training in 1941. The Italian forces, dispersed, relatively immobile and unable to be resupplied would have a tough time prolonging defeat – much less securing victory; especially as the capture of the homes of defending soldiers by American troops eroded Italian morale.

The invasion of Corsica is a necessary appendage to that of Sardinia – the naval and air bases near Ajaccio must be neutralized. Initially this requires a small invasion force: probably 3rd Infantry Division and whatever Free French units are available. As a second echelon, the two horse cavalry regiments of 2nd U.S. Cavalry Division acting as mounted dragoons would be ideal for Corsica’s topography. Additional forces to capture the remainder of the island would come only after Tunisia was fully secured and troops engaged there were rested and reconstituted.

The Italian garrison would exist only if an occupation of Vichy France occurred in early July 1942, and still be hopelessly inadequate. The VII Italian Corps’ primary mission is ant-partisan operations, not anti-invasion. The 226th Coastal Division was not historically formed until April of 1943, and then from conscripted ethnic Italians from Corsica and from areas around Genoa. The 20th Italian Division was trained for a planned invasion of Malta, and for that purpose reinforced by the 7th Italian Artillery Regiment. The 175th Italian Alpine Regiment and the 10th Mobile Regiment completed VII Italian Corps’ assets, and the latter unit had the 13th Italian Armored Car and 32nd Sardinian Bicycle Battalions attached. Not an impressive force once spread over the entire island. If Vichy troops were still in control, their numbers were limited by the 1940 Armistice to internal security duties only.

I have little doubt that Operation Brimstone would succeed. I have greater doubts as to what the German reaction would be. I invite commentary on several questions.

When would the Germans have invaded Vichy France? In April-June of 1942, the Germans exchanged all available combat formations in France for shattered German divisions from the Russian Front. These units executed Fall Anton (Case Anton) in November 1942 after they had been rebuilt. From June until perhaps September 1942, these units would have been too weak to overawe even the diminished Vichy Armistice Army. Would Hitler have withdrawn combat formations destined for Russia to pull off Fall Anton in early July 1942?

I believe that Russia would always remain top priority in German strategy, and no occupation of Vichy France would take place until after Operation Brimstone made it critical. I also rejected the German option of removing the Armistice restrictions and allowing Vichy to mobilize, equip and deploy troops to fight the Americans. There was too great of a chance that once rearmed, Vichy would join the Allied side and welcome Allied troops ashore in southern France. I believe that if Operation Brimstone were executed, the chance of the French Fleet in Toulon escaping to Corsica instead of scuttling itself is excellent.

Once Operation Brimstone was completed, the Axis would have over 1300 miles of potential invasion sites from the French-Spanish border to the toe of Italy relatively undefended. It would truly be a soft underbelly of Europe. Would this result in Hitler seeing reality, abandoning the drive on Stalingrad to go on the defensive, and redeploying enough troops to defend the Mediterranean coastline?

My analysis is no – absolutely nothing will pull Hitler away from concentration on victory in the East until after the decisive defeat at Stalingrad. However, I am nowhere near as certain that I am correct about this question as I am about others. What is the consensus of the forum?

If Hitler does not reallocate forces from Russia, then I am confident the rest of my scenario will play out, and the Western Allies will reach Berlin no later than May of 1944. If Hitler did order a shift to the strategic defensive, then the Third Reich will last another year.
 
Are you sure you have enough US combat transports to do what you plan on the African coast - it appears to provide only enough lift for roughly a reinforced division, ( given what it did during Torch, and moving troops to the UK) while the force you mention is c3 divisions, plus corps troops?
 
Will the fact that Singapore doesn't fall mean that Japan doesn't get the Dutch oil field? If not how will the effect on Japan's ability to wage war. What about Burma, will the Japanese be unable to occupy it. Also I can't help thinking that Indonesia will stay in Dutch hands far longer without the Japanese occupation and the European and Eurasian population in the region. As example the Dutch population in Indonesia exploded from 1900-1940, and we could see a larger increase after the War, not enough to establish some kind of White rule, but enough to it becoming a important demographic group in post-independence Indonesia.
 
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