So a Tudor England, followed by an Aviz one?The Tudor rose still blooms -- but is an Avis rose instead.
So a Tudor England, followed by an Aviz one?The Tudor rose still blooms -- but is an Avis rose instead.
As I said upthread, if the POD you're proposing is pre-Buckingham -- as it seems you are -- then I don't think there is a Tudor England.So a Tudor England, followed by an Aviz one?
Ah, okay.As I said upthread, if the POD you're proposing is pre-Buckingham -- as it seems you are -- then I don't think there is a Tudor England.
Wasn't there talk about Richard remarrying to Joanna of Portugal in OTL? If so maybe he marries her? I don't know what their chances of having children are, though Joanna was known for fasting, so maybe Richard has Henry VIII luck with her?Ricardian England may be followed by an Avis England. Unlike the 1480s, when Portugal is a small kingdom tied down by wars in Africa and Spain, it has practically unlimited resources by the 1500s and 10s. Whether Manuel and Elizabeth choose to press their dual claim to the throne at this time depends on quite a lot: How long does Richard live? To whom does he remarry? Does he sire another son? What is that son's personality and skill? What is the general state of English politics at the end of Richard's reign? How successful is ATL Elizabeth of York in impressing her right to the English throne upon her husband?
So unless Richard III goes full megalomaniac he's not losing the throne in his lifetime?The English had by this time developed a deep sense of "other"-ness when looking to foreign ruling elites. They would be hard-pressed to accept a Portuguese monarch -- but, if Richard III's reign is a mess or if he treads toward tyranny to crack down on dissent (a la Richard II or, to a much lesser extent, Henry VII), then Elizabeth of York may take on a savior sort of status as the rightful queen across the water, and so her children may be welcomed as liberators
Most likely not,Ah, okay.
Wasn't there talk about Richard remarrying to Joanna of Portugal in OTL? If so maybe he marries her? I don't know what their chances of having children are, though Joanna was known for fasting, so maybe Richard has Henry VIII luck with her?
So unless Richard III goes full megalomaniac he's not losing the throne in his lifetime?
That depends on your answers to a whole set of other questions. Does Brittany ransom Henry Tudor to England or does he escape to France? With Elizabeth off the table, do the French wed Tudor to some figure to use a foil to Richard? Does Margaret Beaufort try to arrange a marriage between her son and Margaret of Clarence to pave the way for a Tudor/French invasion? Does Richard go to war with France and/or Scotland to neutralize Tudor's threat? Does Elizabeth Woodville attempt to wed one of her other daughters to Warwick? Does Buckingham push his own claim to the throne? How much financial stress does rebellion or war with France put on Richard's government? How well does the Ricardian regime perform in these many possible conflicts?So unless Richard III goes full megalomaniac he's not losing the throne in his lifetime?
I think they'll keep him around for a bit longer. He's still a useful bargaining chip for Francis II, and he'll likely want to keep it. Since the Buckingham revolt is butterflied, maybe he stays there?Does Brittany ransom Henry Tudor to England or does he escape to France?
I could see the French trying to get hold of Henry here actually, if only to antagonise Richard (who's reign is going to be way shakier than Henry VII's was)With Elizabeth off the table, do the French wed Tudor to some figure to use a foil to Richard?
I could see her doing that actually! Going all in on the Butler scandal, though with Warwick alive that won't too much to help her. Maybe she tries to negotiate with Richard to get Henry back, like she did with Edward? First sucking up to Richard and then negotiating his return. Or trying to get Anne or Cecily for Henry too.Does Margaret Beaufort try to arrange a marriage between her son and Margaret of Clarence to pave the way for a Tudor/French invasion?
I doubt he'd do it in the 1480s, he's just pulled off a coup and offended a tonne of Edwardians, he needs to stabilise the realm before he can do any of those.Does Richard go to war with France and/or Scotland to neutralize Tudor's threat
Maybe, though Warwick is in Richard's custody so that could be difficult.Does Elizabeth Woodville attempt to wed one of her other daughters to Warwick?
I am not sure actually. He could do it here, though he won't have as much support I'd imagine, since he can't disguise it as a plot to restore the Edwardian line.Does Buckingham push his own claim to the throne
Probably a good bit, Richard did confiscate a lot of lands, and offended a lot of people. Rebellion is somewhat inevitable.How much financial stress does rebellion or war with France put on Richard's government?
You're forgetting that France is the traditional enemy. A war with France would pull the nobles together under Richard like nothing else would.doubt he'd do it in the 1480s, he's just pulled off a coup and offended a tonne of Edwardians, he needs to stabilise the realm before he can do any of that
I can't see it. Meg of Clarence is born in 1473, IIRC. She's way too young for Tudor, even if he marries as late as OTL.Does Margaret Beaufort try to arrange a marriage between her son and Margaret of Clarence to pave the way for a Tudor/French invasion?
Now this is more likely. In fact, if Middleham dies as OTL and Richard needs to unite the country, I could see him agreeing to make Warwick and Anne/Katherine his heirs and reuniting the two other York bloodlines on the throne for the sake of peace.Does Elizabeth Woodville attempt to wed one of her other daughters to Warwick?
That's true yes, but it will either end badly, or there will be bickering over many things. It would probably be best for Richard if he spends the majority of his remaining reign at peace and rebuilding the country.You're forgetting that France is the traditional enemy. A war with France would pull the nobles together under Richard like nothing else would.
Richard is too much of a warrior for that, I fear...That's true yes, but it will either end badly, or there will be bickering over many things. It would probably be best for Richard if he spends the majority of his remaining reign at peace and rebuilding the country.
Perhaps, though she may agree with Richard that Edward was an idiot. Besides, it may be Ferdinand that arranges this, not Isabella, as he would probably be willing to piss her off to get their daughter a crown. Still, I suppose another could work, maybe a descendant of Eleanor of Portugal, Holy Roman Empress...Richard is too much of a warrior for that, I fear...
Oh and by the way, your tree is lovely, except Isabella of Castile would never let her daughter marry Richard's heir. She hated the Yorks after Edward IV jilted her. Perhaps a Scottish match, if there's one available? Or a Savoyard one?
I mean, the country is exhausted. The smart thing to do would be to give England a decade or so of peace. A war with France will only cause more exhaustion and money to be lost. In other words, peace was what England needed in the 1480s.You're forgetting that France is the traditional enemy. A war with France would pull the nobles together under Richard like nothing else would.
How much resources would she need?Portugal has not the resources to do anything about this in the near term,