What if Richard I dies on the Third Crusade?

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Might be part of a TL I'm working on if I have time. (Yes, the Waldensian Reformation one - I found a good noble to support Waldo in the Count of Savoy, if it's Waldo who prays for the birth of a son instead of Anthelm; plus, as others noted, the vow of poverty isn't mandatory.)

It's an interesting butterfly, because the Holy Roman Emperor after Frederick (who recaptures the Holy Land, but dies 1-2 years later, near 70) wouldn't be able to hold him for ransom. Does he eventually get the money do invade Southern Italy? If so, he can die of malaria anyway. Where else would he get funds? Taxes?

Also, does Arthur of Brittany have any chance at the throne (Richard had named him his heir), even supported by Philip, with Richard dying 7 years later? I feel sorry for the kid at such a young age. Could he just be shuttled off to a monastery, or would Philip of France actually fight for him over John to become King of England?

As noted, dynastic marriages mean I can have some of these characters like Arthur the same with a POD in the early 1170s, though it'll still start to thin out. But, for the Reformation to grow, it'll need some help. Henry VI (I think I have that right) tying, and a battle over who is HRE, will really help. A war between Philip and John will also help. So does a Pope pushing 90 till 1198. And, Innocent III's Lateran Council can sort of be the start of a Counter Reformation.

 

[Lugal]

Without the money from Richard's ransom would Henry VI invade Sicily (or at least not until later, if it takes him longer to raise the money). Would that give time for Arthur to marry one of Tancred's daughters, as per the treaty between Richard, Philip, and Tancred?

Considering how John ended up as a villain in the Robin Hood stories, I would be curious how they would dovetail into the Arthurian legends if Arthur had lived. Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain would have been very popular at that time. If Arthur tapped into that he could have gotten the people on his side? Especially if he gets back the ''Excaliber" that Richard gave to Tancred.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Thanks; that gives a good place for Arthur to flee to (with Philip II's help) if he's in Brittany when John finally gets up the muster to try to seize him.

Since Henry doesn't become HRE till almost a couple years later than OTL, too, his attacks on the south of Italy can be butterflied away, too. I'm just not sure, fromt he article, if Tancrend died in battle or not, but that could always be butterflied, too. (Having a couple important poeple die, that might be good to balance it out.)

then, maybe henry VI finally raises the funds to attack Sicily in 1197, and there dies of malaria as in OTL.

BTW, has anyone ever based a soap opera int he Middle Ages? I should think they'd have to; I'm reading this and it looks like the nobes' real lives were soaps. I'm just reading about Philip II's marital problems, the Count of Savoy kidnapping a 2nd wife meant for him...hoo boy!

 

[Pooh-Bah]

In your TL, is Phillip on crusade when Richard dies? If he is, then John would have a significant advantage in consolidating his power and eliminating any rivals. If, on the other hand, Phillip stayed at or returned home, young Arthur might have more of a chance.

BTW, has anyone ever based a soap opera int he Middle Ages? I should think they'd have to; I'm reading this and it looks like the nobes' real lives were soaps. I'm just reading about Philip II's marital problems, the Count of Savoy kidnapping a 2nd wife meant for him...hoo boy!

Have you ever watched The Lion in Winter? Brilliant film with outstanding performances, but a lot of twists and turns in the relationships.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

In your TL, is Phillip on crusade when Richard dies? If he is, then John would have a significant advantage in consolidating his power and eliminating any rivals. If, on the other hand, Phillip stayed at or returned home, young Arthur might have more of a chance.



Have you ever watched The Lion in Winter? Brilliant film with outstanding performances, but a lot of twists and turns in the relationships.

No, I haven't; thanks. I imagine it's really interesting.

As for my TL, he dies in the final battle for Jerusalem (there are 2 - the Crusaders take it, Saladin retakes it, then the Crusaders take it back.) So, Philip could go home with Richard's body; leaving Henry II of Jerusalem to fortify, with Saladin now dead, too. I doubt the news would travel back that much faste rthan Richard's body would get there. Not fast enough for John to send troops across to Brittany, anyway. (though it ight be close.)

 

[el t]

Richard I

I see a rapid end of the crusade. I think the crusaders would have been nearly completely leaderless and Saladin may even have attempted to re-capture Acre.

 

[DAv]

No, I haven't; thanks. I imagine it's really interesting.

As for my TL, he dies in the final battle for Jerusalem (there are 2 - the Crusaders take it, Saladin retakes it, then the Crusaders take it back.) So, Philip could go home with Richard's body; leaving Henry II of Jerusalem to fortify, with Saladin now dead, too. I doubt the news would travel back that much faste rthan Richard's body would get there. Not fast enough for John to send troops across to Brittany, anyway. (though it ight be close.)

How're the Crusaders able to take Jerusalem in your TL when they failed to do so in OTL? And twice no less.

 

[Pooh-Bah]

How're the Crusaders able to take Jerusalem in your TL when they failed to do so in OTL? And twice no less.

My understanding was that, among other changes, Barbarossa didn't drown. With an army as large as his, capturing Jerusalem becomes much more likely; until his death Saladin regarded Barbarossa as an infinitely greater threat than Richard, Phillip and the remnants of the crusader states.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

My understanding was that, among other changes, Barbarossa didn't drown. With an army as large as his, capturing Jerusalem becomes much more likely; until his death Saladin regarded Barbarossa as an infinitely greater threat than Richard, Phillip and the remnants of the crusader states.

Right; and, Saladin is actually very near the end of his life, too; which is sped up by the massive battles. that helps in the end, too, as the leaderless Muslims probably wouldn't collapse like the Germans after Frederick's death, but it would be very tough for them. Frederick I Barbarossa not drowning gives the Crusaders a lot more military, as the Germans really fell apart after that.

Not sure if I'll have time to start now, I thought I was less busy, but now some more stuff's come up. Oh, well.