What If: Ranked Choice Voting Implemented in the USA

I was recently watching some political videos about elections and different types of elections that could be implemented and it made me think about how different the USA could be had there been a major political shift that caused a new form of election to take hold in the USA called Ranked Choice.

The idea for it is pretty much you get a ballot and instead of voting for one candidate per position you instead rank them, 1 being you preferred candidate, 2 being your second choice and so on. If a candidate fails to get 50% of the vote, the candidate with the least amount of Rank 1 support is eliminated and the votes from the people who voted for the lowest candidate then are allocated by their 2nd choice and so on, eliminating lower candidates until one candidate remains with 50% of the vote.

While I think this would radically change US politics (debate on whether it would be better or worse notwithstanding) but let's make this a little more specific: What do you think US politics would be like had this form of voting been implemented shortly before, oh, the 1952 US Presidential Election? I pick this date because it marks a major shift in the US, with FDR's legacy starting to fade, the military industrial complex just starting to properly rev up, and malt shops abound (I know, it wasn't as intense as the shows and movies would depict but sue me).

Would the US still be the major power it is today? How would policies be different if more choices for various levels of government (All federal except the Supreme Court) and some (if not most) of the states having this system?
 

Wallet

Banned
You're best bet would be in the 1910s. You had huge electoral reforms. Senators directly elected by the people, women's suffrage, rise of the progressive and socialist parties. After 1912 would be the best bet. Taft and Roosevelt do better leading to a deadlock electoral college. Wilson agree to this new system in order to win the house.

Ignoring butterflies, every election would stay the same except 2000 and 2016. Nader's and Stein's votes go to Gore and Hillary.

Of course with this system, people would take third parties much more seriously. They could protest vote knowing they are still voting for a candidate with an actual chance.
 

Riain

Banned
While congress would still be dominated by the big 2, with maybe a handful of minors and independents, minor parties would count because their preferences would get the big 2 elected. That would take much of the polarization out US politics.
 
You're best bet would be in the 1910s. You had huge electoral reforms. Senators directly elected by the people, women's suffrage, rise of the progressive and socialist parties. After 1912 would be the best bet. Taft and Roosevelt do better leading to a deadlock electoral college. Wilson agree to this new system in order to win the house.

Ignoring butterflies, every election would stay the same except 2000 and 2016. Nader's and Stein's votes go to Gore and Hillary.

Of course with this system, people would take third parties much more seriously. They could protest vote knowing they are still voting for a candidate with an actual chance.
Hmm... Good points. Only issue is the assumption of where those votes would go. And what of the '92 election? Ross Perot got 18-19% of the total vote in that one. And in '96 he took about 8%. Clinton in both failed to get 50% in both, getting far closer in '96 that '92. And wasn't there a study done after the 2000 election that concluded that Nader was, and I quote here, "a wash" by pulling effectively the same number of votes away from Bush and Gore?
Every election for every office in the country???
Oh dear lord no! I was just wanting an idea of how the USA would operate with such a system.
While congress would still be dominated by the big 2, with maybe a handful of minors and independents, minor parties would count because their preferences would get the big 2 elected. That would take much of the polarization out US politics.
With ranked choice voting it would most likely remove a lot of polarization but it could also drastically shift the USA in one direction (liberal) or the other (conservative) whereas current US politics operates center-right to right (despite the American people apprarently being more center-left due to various amounts of support for marijuana legalization, healthcare reform, criminal justice reform and electoral reform).

While many people try to say that the current Electoral College is there so "small states have a voice" we currently see a handful of swing states (Ohio, Florida, Missouri, Iowa, etc) being the ones that the candidates actually tend to stump in for their elections. Assuming this system came in one could make the claim that they would need to spread the messaging some so as to not be eliminated in the first round or two of vote counting.
 

Wallet

Banned
Hmm... Good points. Only issue is the assumption of where those votes would go. And what of the '92 election? Ross Perot got 18-19% of the total vote in that one. And in '96 he took about 8%. Clinton in both failed to get 50% in both, getting far closer in '96 that '92. And wasn't there a study done after the 2000 election that concluded that Nader was, and I quote here, "a wash" by pulling effectively the same number of votes away from Bush and Gore?

Oh dear lord no! I was just wanting an idea of how the USA would operate with such a system.

With ranked choice voting it would most likely remove a lot of polarization but it could also drastically shift the USA in one direction (liberal) or the other (conservative) whereas current US politics operates center-right to right (despite the American people apprarently being more center-left due to various amounts of support for marijuana legalization, healthcare reform, criminal justice reform and electoral reform).

While many people try to say that the current Electoral College is there so "small states have a voice" we currently see a handful of swing states (Ohio, Florida, Missouri, Iowa, etc) being the ones that the candidates actually tend to stump in for their elections. Assuming this system came in one could make the claim that they would need to spread the messaging some so as to not be eliminated in the first round or two of vote counting.
It's the consensus that Perot took from Clinton and Bush equally. Same in 1996.

In 2000, I really think Naders votes were tilted more towards Gore
 

Riain

Banned
With ranked choice voting it would most likely remove a lot of polarization but it could also drastically shift the USA in one direction (liberal) or the other (conservative) whereas current US politics operates center-right to right (despite the American people apprarently being more center-left due to various amounts of support for marijuana legalization, healthcare reform, criminal justice reform and electoral reform).

I hasn't done that here, in fact it pushes politics to the centre because that's where most people want it to be; centre left/right.
 
You're best bet would be in the 1910s. You had huge electoral reforms. Senators directly elected by the people, women's suffrage, rise of the progressive and socialist parties. After 1912 would be the best bet. Taft and Roosevelt do better leading to a deadlock electoral college. Wilson agree to this new system in order to win the house.

Ignoring butterflies, every election would stay the same except 2000 and 2016. Nader's and Stein's votes go to Gore and Hillary.

Of course with this system, people would take third parties much more seriously. They could protest vote knowing they are still voting for a candidate with an actual chance.

Don't ignore the butterflies: secondary parties are certainly going to emerge, at least as "Regional" voices with seats in Congress. The Socialist Party I imagine surviving to the present day as a political force even if, ultimately, they don't ever get a president elected. If the reforms occur under the Progressives, as you seem to suggest, they would also likely stick around; either as a replacement for the Socialists in many respects or as a Farmer-Laborer/Rural voting bloc with more conservative social stances. This will certainly have a big impact as it means party "Tents" aren't likely to grow as big in terms of their core voting blocs. To use a contemporary example, "Bernie-Bros"/Economically-focused Liberals and "Hillery" Neo-Liberals woulden't need to campaign together or form a compromise platform in order to combat a similar move from the right, even if the actual Congressmen do so on the floor. While this probably has a greater impact on campaigns than actual politics, it would certainly do a lot to increase popular political participation, as a citizen is more likely to find a local party who's views align closely enough with theirs to be deemed worth their time, and would have to get a clearer idea of their own political stances in order to pick the "best" candidate out of a wider, less compromise-refined field.
 

Wallet

Banned
Don't ignore the butterflies: secondary parties are certainly going to emerge, at least as "Regional" voices with seats in Congress. The Socialist Party I imagine surviving to the present day as a political force even if, ultimately, they don't ever get a president elected. If the reforms occur under the Progressives, as you seem to suggest, they would also likely stick around; either as a replacement for the Socialists in many respects or as a Farmer-Laborer/Rural voting bloc with more conservative social stances. This will certainly have a big impact as it means party "Tents" aren't likely to grow as big in terms of their core voting blocs. To use a contemporary example, "Bernie-Bros"/Economically-focused Liberals and "Hillery" Neo-Liberals woulden't need to campaign together or form a compromise platform in order to combat a similar move from the right, even if the actual Congressmen do so on the floor. While this probably has a greater impact on campaigns than actual politics, it would certainly do a lot to increase popular political participation, as a citizen is more likely to find a local party who's views align closely enough with theirs to be deemed worth their time, and would have to get a clearer idea of their own political stances in order to pick the "best" candidate out of a wider, less compromise-refined field.
Yes, for congress or local elections. But I don't think big tent parties will ever disappear from America for presidential election.

You need 270 electoral votes, a majority from 538. Without it it goes to the House which is chaotic. Then it's liable for corruption and promises, things very harmful to our democracy. Then it might not reflect the will of the voters.

Even in a popular vote system, a candidate would only win 30% of the vote, something very undesirable.

It would only work if you had a runoff popular vote system
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
. . . And wasn't there a study done after the 2000 election that concluded that Nader was, and I quote here, "a wash" by pulling effectively the same number of votes away from Bush and Gore? . . .
Yes, there was! :) essentially, maybe slightly tilted to Al Gore.

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/lewis/pdf/greenreform9.pdf

' . . . at most 60% of Nader voters would have voted for Gore had they faced a two-candidate election, and at least 40% of the would have chosen Bush. . . '
 

Riain

Banned
For shits and giggles, using Wiki as a guide since I don't know much about US politics, I'll preference out the 2016 Presidential race in New Mexico, where the Libertarians got a big chunk of the vote. It's just popular vote, not broken into ECs or anything, there were 798,319 votes cast so 399,160 wins it.

Party Candidate Votes %
Democratic Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine 385,234 48.26%
Republican Donald Trump and Mike Pence 319,667 40.04%
Libertarian Gary Johnson and William Weld 74,541 9.34%
Green Jill Stein and Ajamu Baraka 9,879 1.24%
Independent Evan McMullin and Nathan Johnson 5,825 0.73%
Constitution Darrell Castle and Scott Bradley 1,514 0.19%
Socialism and Liberation Gloria La Riva and Dennis Banks 1,184 0.14%
Independent Rocky De La Fuente and Michael Steinberg 475 0.06%
----------------------------------------
Democratic Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine 385,234
Republican Donald Trump and Mike Pence 319,667
Libertarian Gary Johnson and William Weld 74,541
Green Jill Stein and Ajamu Baraka 9,879
Independent Evan McMullin and Nathan Johnson 6,299
Constitution Darrell Castle and Scott Bradley 1,514
Socialism and Liberation Gloria La Riva and Dennis Banks 1,184
-----------------------------------------------------

Democratic Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine 385,234
Republican Donald Trump and Mike Pence 319,667
Libertarian Gary Johnson and William Weld 76,055
Green Jill Stein and Ajamu Baraka 11,063
Independent Evan McMullin and Nathan Johnson 6,299
----------------------------
Democratic Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine 385,234
Republican Donald Trump and Mike Pence 319,667
Libertarian Gary Johnson and William Weld 82,354
Green Jill Stein and Ajamu Baraka 11,063
------------------------------------------------------
Democratic Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine 396,297
Republican Donald Trump and Mike Pence 319,667
Libertarian Gary Johnson and William Weld 82,354
-------------------------------------------------------

Democratic Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine 396,297
Republican Donald Trump and Mike Pence 402,021
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump takes New Mexico.
 
As a one-off election the results probably won't look very different. I can't imagine that there is a single sane American voter today voting for a third party candidate who wishes that if their choice doesn't win, they'd want their vote transferred to someone from the main parties. If that was their preference, they'd already be voting for a mainstream candidate anyways.

This kind of system works better where there are three or more parties that actually stand a chance of winning.

That said, I would expect such parties to try to compete regionally and by state to get seats in Congress, and leave the White House race to the two big parties. This could have some interesting consequences.
 
Ranked choice voting makes a lot more sense for the Presidency or any executive office where the task before the voters is to pick one person to exercise all responsibility for a period of time. I think it would be far more reasonable to adopt a nationally or statewide aggregated proportional vote to get properly representative legislatures. What ranked choice voting would do for Congressional elections is indeed to encourage third parties and independent voices to run seriously, and enable people who suspect they cannot possibly win voting for these to register their support for them anyway, and then get down to the business of still choosing between the two main parties. We'd be better off than the current system in that third candidates might unexpectedly turn into leading ones much to everyone's surprise; it would inject a certain competitive edginess even to the most "Safe" district elections. But at the end of the day, it will lead to a lot of people voting for something they really want, then regretfully settling for a compromise candidate who is deemed conventionally "electable." Whereas with true PR, people can elect the candidates they want, period. People who are in a hopeless minority in one district can push candidates over the top in another where more people have their viewpoint; people who represent a viewpoint that is so rare it cannot ever be expected to prevail in any one district can band together and elect a proportional number of representatives from across the nation. Ranked choice would be better but PR would be best.

Not so for trying to elect a President! I think the OP simply assumes a necessary Amendment goes through in which a ranked choice candidate must win an absolute majority of the American popular vote, and the whole system of state Electoral Votes is simply abolished. This would make a Presidential race essentially the same as a gubernatorial race writ large if both offices have the same rules.

If we simply take votes as cast OTL and translate them into this alternate system then indeed most elections would presumably go as OTL. But it is really hard to say for sure, because of the freedom that being able to just vote for the one you think is really best first, and only fall back on your second, third or even lower ranking after first registering your true preference will shake things up. People might hope that others will favor the same "long shot" candidate they preferred even though national narrative said these outsiders did not have a chance, and their choice of first choice might change their thinking about lower ranked choices.

For instance the OP suggests starting in 1952. As it happens, Harry Truman had a unique privilege to run for the office in 1952, due to the language of the recent Amendment limiting Presidents to just two terms exempting the current office holder when it passed. But as it also happened, he shared the generally dim view of his prospects of winning everyone else did that year, unlike 1948 where all conventional wisdom decreed he was a dead duck, and yet he won election in his own right anyway. Indeed in 1952 voters will remember other upsets in living memory, such as a certain well respected popular magazine predicting Hoover would beat Roosevelt in 1932--this poll was biased by being conducted by telephone, in an era where ownership of home telephones was skewed toward the rich. In the first election under the new system, people will have a healthy disregard for pundits telling them who is sure to win and sure to lose.

So--will the election of 1952 be a simple binary choice between the Republican and Democratic candidate? If in fact all elections are such, then we have no need of anything as fancy as ranked voting; people simply vote for A or B and one of them, getting a plurality over the other, automatically also have an absolute majority and win, pure and simple. The reason we want more complicated systems is that there are in fact always third party candidates, and in many elections--not most OTL, but many--no one gets a popular vote majority. The purpose of ranked voting would then be to hold an "instant runoff" as it were, eliminating the least performing candidate and transferring their votes to the second ranked candidate their prime voters each selected. With heavily divided first rank votes, this might have to go many iterations. And what if in fact people do not choose to vote for any one candidate with majority votes? This depends on the details of the election rules. Do all voters in all locations of the USA face exactly the same ballot, or will some candidates be present on some ballots but not others? Must every voter assign a rank to each candidate to cast a valid vote, or is it OK for them to just vote for one and leave the others unaccounted for? I would want to exercise my right to assign a value to every one, but a lot of people might not want to be bothered; should we honor that, or penalize it somehow? For instance, suppose the ballot has 9 choices and I rank 5 of them, but leave 4 of them blank. Is that simply a non-vote for the candidates left blank? Consider that in say 1948 I might have no opinion on some very obscure candidates but want to declare that I really really don't want to see Strom Thurmond win, and therefore rank my top 4 that I more or less like 1-4, leave the middle 4 blank since I just don't care about them, or am ignorant of what they stand for and don't want to risk ranking someone I might actually like better than another lower or someone with some views that make even Thurmond look good to me higher than Thurmond. So I leave them blank but rank Thurmond 9. Now however my vote might conceivably be counted toward a Thurmond win, whereas the ones I leave blank cannot benefit from my vote regardless. However we could adopt a policy whereby candidates whom voters leave blank are ranked by the national outcomes of people who did vote for them and filled in for me, so all voters are in effect ranking everyone, only some of them on consensus autopilot as it were. That motivates me to form a ranking opinion of everyone on the ballot since otherwise having it interpolated for me could give the reverse of what I would have wanted had I had time to form my opinions on each. Much can depend on the detailed rules! Who gets to decide which candidates appear on a national standard ballot, and can I write in a tenth candidate and rank them #1?

Let's assume that we do have a single national ballot, and it does not allow for write ins, and voters are free to rank as few or many as they like but practically speaking all do rank the leading candidates somewhere on their list. And the rule is, the President is the one who has 50 percent plus 1 or more votes, something mathematically guaranteed to happen if the iteration eliminates all but the top two, though the majority figure the winner has then might be a much lower number than half the total votes cast. The idea is if you can't be arsed to rank a candidate, your vote just does not count at that stage.

Now the Election of 1952, if we assume everyone's first choice is frozen to be as OTL, is a big snooze, because Dwight Eisenhower was the Republican candidate, after a period of 20 solid years of Democratic Presidents, with the last couple years of Truman's final term being marred by serious crises he was plausibly blamed for, and the whole Democratic ascendency by association. The Republicans might have run someone less assured of victory than Ike, and still won. Possibly. Looking at the table down in the article collating all the popular votes cast for all the candidates, we find there were not 2 candidates who received PV but eight, including over 9000 out of almost 62 million who went for yet more minor candiates. Assuming the other six minor party candidates had no trouble getting listed on the ballot, and that no other candidates made the cut, and disallowing write-ins, those 9000+ voters would have to choose one of the other 8 for their prime vote.

But the election is a snooze because even counting them, out of a total of 61,751,942 people voting a candidate needs 30,875,972 votes to win--but Eisenhower got nearly 3.2 million votes beyond that, a margin over 10 percent. The count process stops right there and Eisenhower is President by a landslide!

But wait, if people can rank their votes by preference, why should Ike get such a clear comfortable majority out the gate? This is presumably the first election where people do not have to begin by choosing the lesser evil and being done with it. Look at the names of the 6 parties and Presidential candidates trailing behind Ike and Stevenson--5 of the 6 appear to be more or less leftist parties, with Douglas MacArthur getting a very small share of votes under the Constitution banner as the only candidate apparently to the right of Eisenhower. Conceivably the Prohibition party might be more reactionary, but given the history of the Temperance movement OTL I think that would be a hasty judgement--one would have to look into it carefully. Had all of those voters, and the 9000+ for yet more candidates, and even those for MacArthur all concentrated on Stevenson--he'd still lose. But what if people who felt they had to choose between Stevenson and Eisenhower could first exercise a much broader discretion, only coming home to the two mainstream parties after registering the exact character of their dissent?

It also seems reasonable a lot of people who voted for Ike OTL would first vote for MacArthur if their second choice brought them into Eisenhower's fold safely. I think everyone who did vote for MacArthur could be counted on to prefer Ike over any of the other choices except maybe Prohibition, and assuming Prohibition gets no more than a factor of 10 bump overall, the initial rank votes might look extremely different; conceivably MacArthur gets more than half the votes Ike did OTL, reflecting the conservative base of the Republican party, and ranks first of all candidates, while the left wing vote overshadows the right with people who ultimately back Eisenhower first weighing in as say for the Progressive party, along with a lot of Stevenson OTL voters first favoring the various socialist/progressive parties too.

The whole point of ranked voting is that it is anyone's guess how frequent a given rank order of candidates would be, or who exactly gets the first rank votes. Those will tend to be far more scattered than OTL; there is no need to consolidate your vote on a broad consensus candidate until more detailed matches to one or another political viewpoint are eliminated.

Let's say instead of 1952 that this same ranked voting system is first introduced 40 years later, in 1992. People perhaps do not realize how dramatically split the votes were in 1992. H Ross Perot actually came in second behind Clinton in the state of Maine for instance; he got a lot of popular votes, far more than Nader in the 2000 election. Also, over 142,000 voters out of just over 104 million voted for third parties not included in the top 7. Again the question of who gets on the ballot and what options voters might have to add yet others comes up, with much greater urgency than in 1952!

Just looking at the top 7, ignoring the rest by subtracting them from the national total, a candidate would require over 52 million votes to win, and assuming everyone's first rank choice is for who they voted for OTL (already a very unreasonable assumption!) the front runner Bill Clinton is 7 million short. We might crudely assume that of all the parties below Perot, 3 of the 4 would rank Bush or Perot over Clinton. Let's say the Populist and US Taxpayer's Party voters all went to Bush second, the Libertarians all went to Perot second, leaving Lenora Fulani voters to all vote for Clinton second--actually I suspect many of them would go to Perot before Clinton for reasons. This puts Clinton requiring 7 million more votes, Bush needing 13 million more, and Perot with 20 million to be apportioned among them. Whether Clinton is elected or Bush reelected, depends on who the Independents favored more on their second choice, and Libertarians on their third choice level. I honestly could not guess which would win! (my suspicion--Bush).

The idea of introducing ranked choice voting is to introduce a strongly competitive dynamic whereby voters can be very specific as to exactly what sort of President they would prefer individually, and then having sent that message their lower ranked choices would tend to converge on presumptive mainstream compromise "lesser evil" candidates. But voters might be surprised by stronger support for presumptive "third party" candidates which catapults them into contention for victory.

I think it would be very hard to game with OTL data, because the nature of our current electoral system for all offices is to put sharp limits on the viability of many types of candidate who would become more competitive in an ATL system, and to increase turnout generally since votes tend to be somewhat to overwhelmingly more effective. The type of government policies that emerge would differ and bring a cascade of ATL changes versus OTL that leaves the whole landscape completely altered.

Having this option in individual district Congress races (and state legislatures, county commissions and so forth) will similarly jazz things up versus OTL. I hasten to add I still strongly prefer PR instead, because PR addresses a great many evils a ranked choice vote for winner take all in a district does not address. The ill effects of gerrymandering for instance can be neutralized by PR aggregated across the entire region to be governed, but ranked choice voting does nothing against gerrymandering.
 

Riain

Banned
That said, I would expect such parties to try to compete regionally and by state to get seats in Congress, and leave the White House race to the two big parties. This could have some interesting consequences.

Not just regions, but issues too; we have the Shooters and Fishers party, the Fast Train Party, The Sex Party (who, I shit you not, has a seat in the Victorian Parliament. The MLA is a former 'working girl') and the like. The goal of these parties is to lever the majors into adopting legislation/projects amenable to these parties such as duplicating a train line or altering the start of duck season, if the major don't then these parties will send their preferences elsewhere. The voters for these parties know they aren't going to take government, and have their own ideas about running the State or Country, but do want to support these pet issues in particular as well thinking of the big picture.

All in all, voter behaviour changes. As you can see in my example above with STV the Libertarians had the power to deliver New Mexico to one of the big 2, so the big 2 would be looking to appease them with policy and projects to get the 9% on offer.
 

Riain

Banned
I think it would be very hard to game with OTL data, because the nature of our current electoral system for all offices is to put sharp limits on the viability of many types of candidate who would become more competitive in an ATL system

True, but the inklings are there. For example where they get a chance Greens parties tend to shoot up above 10% but only until the majors adopt some 'reasonable' green policies then they settle at about 10%. Which might be enough to find a seat in Congress, but is certainly enough to influence the big 2.

On a semi-related note, does being overly interested in the effects of various voting systems indicate that I have a mental condition and should see a psych?
 
....
That said, I would expect such parties to try to compete regionally and by state to get seats in Congress, and leave the White House race to the two big parties. This could have some interesting consequences.

Why? Why not totally shatter the 2 party system and wind up with 5 or 6 major parties, none of whom ever get close to majorities on the first ballot, who contend fluidly for public favor of individual candidates?

Keeping the Congressional District races separate with no proportional assignment of seats would tend to favor continuing the 2 party system, but if that works at the level of Presidential races, I daresay it will be favored in Congress, nor is there strong reason to expect regional parties that somehow fuse into two national ones smoothly and stably. Having proper PR for the legislatures would I think result in a big 3-4 parties that between them get fluctuating between 40 and 60 percent of the vote, and a dozen or so small but serious and stable parties and several dozen very small and ephemeral ones.

Back in July I responded to a thread looking at proportional voting using OTL outcomes, analyzing the difference between the OTL most recent Parliamentary vote in Britain's FPTP outcomes versus PR. In this post I was addressing in particular the counterproductive proposal of having a "hurdle" to exclude votes for parties below an arbitrary threshold, which I argued would make the outcomes significantly less proportional. The argument for having hurdles boiled down to the presumption that having numerous parties in a legislature is inherently unwieldy and difficult, making for inefficient and unstable government. But in fact with FPTP, Britain wound up with a Parliament seating 9 parties, leaving out the Speaker (who is deemed to be non-Partisan-their role is quite different from US speaker of the House BTW). With 649 nominally competitive seats, Parliament wound up like this:

Conservative Party 317
Labour Party 262
Scottish National Party 35
Liberal Democrats 12
Democratic Unionist Party 10
Sinn Féin 7
Plaid Cymru 4
Green Party of England and Wales 1
Speaker John Bercow 1
Independent Sylvia Hermon 1

With 325 seats needed to form an actual majority, we see that the Tories wound up having to scrounge up 8 more votes from someone or other anyway.

Proper proportional assignment using the Hamilton Method gave me this instead:

275 Conservative Party --11 down from the "hurdle" allocation
260 Labour Party--10 down
48 Liberal Democrats--2 down
20 Scottish National Party-1 down
12 UK Independence Party--same
11 Green Party of England and Wales--same
6 Democratic Unionist Party
5 Sinn Féin
4 Plaid Cymru
2 Social Democratic & Labour Party
2 Ulster Unionist Party
1 Alliance Party of Northern Ireland
1 Independent Unionist
1 Yorkshire Party
1 National Health Action Party

On this list, the "hurdle" refers to a proposal to have a 1 percent hurdle excluding parties (which I remind everyone, is to say, their voters) getting less than 1 percent of the total. Having such a hurdle concentrates seats, out 649 competitive voting seats, into the top 6 parties, which might seem not so bad, but see my analysis below:

...184,858 voters are left with zero representation, enough to account for 4 seats in Parliament, but under FPTP, the corresponding numbers are 1,059,255 and 21 seats! And that doesn't even begin to take into consideration the distorted outcomes among those who get some representation but not in proportion to their votes! Under Hamilton PR, the natural "hurdle" turns out to be around 6000, about 2 percent of 1 percent.

What does adopting the proposed hurdle system and counting only votes among the top six parties do in these terms? ....Only slightly more voters are included than under FPTP, with 1,009,795 left out... Since we can see that the numbers of people left out by either hurdles with PR or FPTP with no hurdles are similar, PR is still better by far, from the point of view of Parliament reflecting the proportions of votes cast anyway. But the hurdle has, as one might suppose from first principles, a distorting effect, and when I compare a million people excluded from having representation in any numbers versus less than a fifth that without the hurdles, I must again ask, what benefit are the hurdles to us? Under either version of PR, and under FPTP, Parliament must deal with having a lot of little parties, so I don't think it can be said that the fact there are nearly 3 times as many without the hurdles as with (and FPTP is nearly as diverse) is a crippling flaw of being inclusive.

The relevance to this thread is to consider carefully, just what is the purpose of an ATL electoral reform? We may wish, as AH buffs, to simply experiment around and educate ourselves by playing wonky games, and we don't need to justify these changes as we would if we were writing an actual TL. But I do think we should at least consider the rationale behind any proposed ATL change--why would people support this, versus standing pat with a relatively simple system?

I have a peculiar solution to achieving nationally aggregated PR while also retaining attachment to a single member district system, which if it has advantages for anyone certainly these apply strongly for the USA, with its immense geographic distances. Usually there is posed a sort of tradeoff in PR, between aggregating the vote nationally at the alleged cost of losing all local connection, versus having districts with multiple members, which seriously in my view compromises the basic principles of PR, by disaggregating the nation so that small minorities scattered across the districts cannot aggregate to achieve a fair level of representation, and has a distorting effect on the overall representativeness of the combined legislature as well. But this is deemed the price of having local representation. I recommend looking into a system based on having half, or just slightly less than half, as many districts as there are seats in the legislature, with each district electing one and the votes toward each party from each of these single seat races being added up to compute a national share of the whole legislature for each party; district wins will subtract from each party's quota. Details properly belong in another thread I suppose but the point is to give voters concerned with strictly local issues primarily the option of strictly local campaigns, while also allowing the full benefits of PR to the nation as a whole.

Here the proposal is not to have any linkage between separate district races whatsoever; versus the current Winner Take All with a simple plurality, it is somewhat better, but I strongly suspect that in practice the system will be almost as poorly representative as First Past the Post/Winner Take All anyway, because losers in a district have their votes go effectively unrepresented, except insofar as they are virtually represented by victors in other districts. In a strictly two-party system that might be valid, but actually in addition to Republicans in districts represented by Democrats and Democrats in districts represented by Republicans, we have in every election people who want neither of these parties, who are represented typically not at all by anyone. In the British election earlier this year, the UKIP earned 12 seats in Parliament judging by total votes cast as a percentage of the national whole, but got zero seats by FPTP, whereas a tiny splinter party from Northern Ireland was able to gain a seat with less than 1/20 of what UKIP got. That is one aspect of dysfunction of separated districts with no aggregation; another is the huge discrepancy whereby the Conservative Party got 317 seats with a share of votes that ought to have gotten them only 275, a 15 percent gain.

So--if the goal of an ATL election reform is to bring outcomes in closer line to what voters actually want, I think ranked preference to achieve instant runoff when needed is a good thing in choosing a single unitary office, but that some kind of PR is much superior for choosing a legislature or other multimember body. The ranked preference system is a bit challenging for the voter to cast an effective vote with, and challenging to be counted in a transparent manner. It might be worth it for the executive offices, but while the detailed form of my national semi-district based PR has some complex elaborations to address some important though subtle issues, in its basic form it is nearly identical to OTL simple FPTP systems--you just vote for the single candidate you want to win. And yes, I would provide write-in procedures as part of the elaborations I was talking about. The idea is to maximize the power of the voter.

But election systems do not simply determine winners and officeholders. They also involve a certain amount of ritualistic validation of the winners as the people's choices, in whom the people should have confidence. They have "optics."

Consider what the electoral vote system typically achieves for instance in US Presidential elections. Of late we are, with some reason, losing confidence in it, but by and large the effect has been to multiply small margins of victory into very sold EV majorities. This helps to "sell" the nation on the legitimacy of a particular individual holding supreme power over the US Federal administration, despite the fact that large numbers of voters were actively against them during the prior election. It is all very well to say "so and so won" but when they can point to large margins of victory, they look much stronger. Bill Clinton for instance came out of the 1992 election looking quite weak in popular vote terms, and yet he was the least weak and clearly no one was more entitled to the office than he was--but his Electoral Vote victory was quite decisive.

If we instead use a Ranked Preference system, the popular opinion on this thread is that the two party system will continue, whereas I expect that people will in fact tend to use their power to point to a candidate who is more exactly what they wish to see in a President, without compromise with anyone else's preferences, and then only after that first round choice start collapsing toward the middle to find common ground. If the rule is that candidates who fail to achieve a majority must rely on votes transferred to them from second and lower preferences until someone does have a majority, that tends to highlight rather than obscure the compromises involved in selecting a President, but it does nothing to check or spread their power. Indeed in the context of having a more properly democratic power over the Presidency I have tried to find ways to tie a President to the complete coalition needed to elect them, to make the secondary voters needed to amass the necessary majority effective in redirecting the selected individual's consideration and drive toward the minorities who taken together brought them to power. And yet by this rule, superior though it can be to OTL practice, still only requires the consent of just half the nation, not the whole! The optics look divisive rather than uniting.

So in that context consider what First Past the Post does for the British Parliament. People afraid of the apparent chaos that might be unleashed by a proper proportional system argue both for hurdles to filter out small parties and for the alternative form of hurdle inherent in needing to secure a plurality in a district election--and yet OTL, with FPTP in place, British Parliament must deal with 9 parties, despite having filtered out the votes of over a million of those cast completely. But the big difference is that one party winds up in spitting distance of holding the 325 votes needed to govern outright. In the current Parliament the Conservatives fall just short by 8 votes, but the optics, to those who don't delve into the minutia of the election, seem to be that they come very close to representing the will of the British people, and thus can, with the help of one other party with more than 8 votes, form a government that can claim to speak for all of them--never mind that over a million voters cast votes for parties with zero representation in the Parliament, and over half of those whose votes got past that hurdle did not vote Tory. We can see from the proportional version I computed that if the Tories were to pair up with the Scottish National Party, third largest after Labour, that would actually represent just 295/649 or just over 45 percent of the vote cast, yet this coalition appears in respect to FPTP outcomes to represent over 54 percent, and does have that majority needed to rule under current rules.

It is my belief that a democracy should be democratic, and that these pseudomajorities should not be favored; genuine ruling coalitions should depend on solid majorities of voters backing them. I suspect that electoral systems that demand that outcome will show a different political dynamic than we are used to with our simpler but less representative systems. It is therefore hard to project what the outcomes would be in an ATL because we don't have the data to tell us how people would vote if these rules were in place instead of the OTL ones. It depends a lot on what a TL author thinks the historic people actually wanted, and how feasible it is to deliver it in the form they would demand.

To argue that the outcomes would be close in terms of policy and law to OTL ones is to argue that the crude systems we have are quite good enough really.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
The kicker in a multiple transferable vote system, is that you can ABSOLUTELY FUCKING HATE Hillary Clinton until she's runnin against Trump, and she's the lesser of two evils, pick her as your last choice, and then go vote third party without any possible consequences viz-a-viz Trump vs Clinton.

The same is true of Gore and Bush, or Nixon and Kennedy.

The reprocusions here are absolutely staggering.

Third parties immediately become immensely more popular (in the elections) because your vote still counts, even if your first pick doesn't win.


By 2017, it might very well have translated into the death of the Big Two.
 

Riain

Banned
The big 2 dominate federal and state politics here. STV is good at getting major parties to broaden their appeal but not good at letting minor parties get into parliament.

Its proportional voting that lets all the minors in at the expense of the majors, like our constipated senate.
 
I lived in NZ for a few years and live in Germany now and I have grown to love MMP for legislative bodies (even if I find the latest Bundestag results... troubling). In Wellington they also used STV for city coucil election (with a mail-in ballot! Brilliant!) and I thought that was a nice way to fill out a smaller body of elected officials. In a smaller state (geographically) like a Delaware or Rhode Island where regional differences aren't as drastic (as, for example, California or Texas), I'd love to see someone try STV to choose thier representatives (i.e. everyone's name goes on the ranked ballot; first 3 candidates over 50% get the spots). I don't know how big of a difference it would make, but I imagine it gets some third party candidates into office, which would break the two-party stalemate the US has now.
 
The big 2 dominate federal and state politics here. STV is good at getting major parties to broaden their appeal but not good at letting minor parties get into parliament.

Its proportional voting that lets all the minors in at the expense of the majors, like our constipated senate.
Surely you mean IRV? STV is the proportional version of that.
 
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