Probably the most likely scenario, definitely seems like something they'd do
What if Queen Elizabeth married Henry Hastings?
- Thread starter RedKing
- Start date
Ah ok thanks.
Mary will most likely marry as soon as possible to produce an heir while Elizabeth lives the life of a noblewoman, wife and mother, allowing her to raise the some of the children before becoming queen and without the stress of court.
Imagine if butterflies cause Mary to have a healthy child. That would be hilarious, Elizabeth and Henry's plan to just wait until she dies would blow up in their faces!
That would be the luck of England, losing Elizabeth and gaining a spawn of Bloody Mary and Philip lol
Having a healthy little boy might do wonders for Mary's psyche. AIUI a lot of the more grizzly aspects of her reign were caused by her desperation to have a child
I doubt Mary will marry her catholic son to a protestant girl whose mother Mary sees as illegitimate.
Having a son will cause an heir that unites the thrones of England, Spain and Portugal will boost Mary's mood.
But what about Mary having a daughter (let's call her Catherine) and then marrying Catherine to Elizabeth and Henry's son?
Not impossible, but it would probably require Mary to live to see the marriage go through. Otherwise, a likelier option is a match with a potential son of Mary, Queen of Scots and a non-French husband (there were several proposals OTL IIRC about a child of Mary, QoS marrying a hypothetical child of Elizabeth's) or an archduke if the former isn't available. Not like Elizabeth/Hastings would be in much of a position to do anything about it.
True, but if Henry Hastings becomes a lead regent he might force the marriage through, Mary or no Mary
Several threads before on the prospect of Mary leaving an underage heir suggest that regents will be Cardinal Pole (should he survive), Gardiner, or some other high placed Catholic noble. Liz would only have felipe's backing if she was unmarried.
I see, so let's say Mary dies without issue like otl. Do Henry and Elizabeth reign together?
Hasting's father the 2nd Earl was close to Dudley hence the marriage between his heir and Katherine Dudley in 1553 - so you need to butterfly that.
Secondly - while Hastings nominally supported Jane Grey it's worth remembering that his uncle was Cardinal Pole which is why he probably survived under Mary I.
I think its debatable that Edward would permit his sister to marry Henry - Elizabeth's actions in this period largely portrayed herself in a way to appeal to Edward's Protestantism and to address the damage to her reputation over the Seymour affair - given that experience she isn't going to launch herself into any relationship without Edward's consent and the consent of the council. Edward still faces the same dilemmas he did in otl - to allow his father's will to stand and be succeeded by his increasingly dogmatic and disloyal catholic sister was anathema to him, but he couldn't skip her and still allow Elizabeth to retain her succession rights. It was easier legally to simply state they were both illegitimate under the law and like his father Edward had the right to amend the succession to exclude illegitimate lines from the succession.
He also personally did not want a woman to succeed him given the idea of a woman ruling was counter to his religious views - hence his device was initially to the Lady Jane Grey's heirs male and so on - it was only changed when it became apparent he wouldn't live long enough for his female cousin's to produce a male heir.
Even Elizabeth marrying his friend Henry (whose religious views were similar to the King) isn't going to enable him to get over the problem he faces in skipping Mary in favour of Elizabeth.
Secondly - while Hastings nominally supported Jane Grey it's worth remembering that his uncle was Cardinal Pole which is why he probably survived under Mary I.
I think its debatable that Edward would permit his sister to marry Henry - Elizabeth's actions in this period largely portrayed herself in a way to appeal to Edward's Protestantism and to address the damage to her reputation over the Seymour affair - given that experience she isn't going to launch herself into any relationship without Edward's consent and the consent of the council. Edward still faces the same dilemmas he did in otl - to allow his father's will to stand and be succeeded by his increasingly dogmatic and disloyal catholic sister was anathema to him, but he couldn't skip her and still allow Elizabeth to retain her succession rights. It was easier legally to simply state they were both illegitimate under the law and like his father Edward had the right to amend the succession to exclude illegitimate lines from the succession.
He also personally did not want a woman to succeed him given the idea of a woman ruling was counter to his religious views - hence his device was initially to the Lady Jane Grey's heirs male and so on - it was only changed when it became apparent he wouldn't live long enough for his female cousin's to produce a male heir.
Even Elizabeth marrying his friend Henry (whose religious views were similar to the King) isn't going to enable him to get over the problem he faces in skipping Mary in favour of Elizabeth.
Elizabeth is older than Jane and if she married early enough is not impossible who she had a son before Edward‘s death, and that would resolve Edward’s troubles in how excluding Mary from the succession (as he will name Elizabeth’s son as heir instead of Mary, Elizabeth or Jane)
Well Tudor was the noble house Henry VII was from, his father's house, hence its usage. If Henry VIII had used Plantagenet officially he'd be claiming himself a bastard unless he could show his father was a male line descendant of the Plantagenets or that his father had married into the York Plantagenet line.
That could work, with Elizabeth and Henry Hastings using their son as a puppet, though when they die that could lead to their son being incompetent
For me its the balance of probability that i have an issue with - the timeline is difficult because of when Edward became ill - cold in January became more serious in the February and was followed by some relapses and his eventual death - he didn't seriously consider or worry about the succession until he became unwell - at the earliest you can say April/May perhaps when he began to have genuine concerns.
We don't know what his feelings were about excluding Elizabeth - they got on - however he was quite happy for her to be questioned at length over the Seymour affair, and he was quite happy to send both his maternal uncles to the scaffold, Mary had been close to him as a child but by this period their relationship was dreadful and reduced to him haranguing her about religion. Elizabeth play acted the humble almost puritan maiden but her religion was a damn site closer to Henry VIII's Anglican Catholicism than Edward's more stripped back Protestantism.
Even if that wasn't the case - you don't really have time for Edward to force his sister to marry Hastings and to hopefully produce a son - because the problem is before he became ill he was a relatively healthy teenager - so why would he force his younger sister to marry the son of a minor peer - she was a very wealthy woman irrespective or her place in the succession and her legitimacy or lack of it - there were quite frankly going to be better offers on the table more befitting the sister of the King.
You can argue about his family's Plantagenet descent but then so could half the Tudor aristocracy and most found boasting about it dangerous to their long term survival.
I think it is far more likely that the boy wanted to exclude both his sister's due to their undoubted (to his mind) illegitimacy and to ensure a succession more in keeping with his own moral and religious views. It was time that ran out which forced him to name Lady Jane.
If by some miracle Elizabeth and Hastings are married in 1552 (though you are going to have to find a really good reason that actually works) - given he remained childless throughout his life it also might be a stretch to get Elizabeth pregnant and delivered of a boy by June 1553 when Edward was creating his device.
There's little advantage to many of Edward's council in that solution either - Elizabeth is a grown woman and with a younger husband whom she might dominate - and the council is made up of men who have effectively conspired to prevent her own accession in favour of her infant son - if I were them i would be rather wary of the idea.
Assuming Lizy still becomes queen, and has children, I could actually see this going a little worse for England. OTL, being inherited by King James was probably one of the best things that ever happened, giving them access to the coal used for the industrial revolution (yes a fair bit was in England proper but near the frontier and thus still vulnerable), secured their northern border, gave them a reliable "ally," and a whole lot of people who didn't want to be under England's thumb directly who went to colonies. And whatever successes the Ulster Plantations saw was because of the ulster scots who wouldn't exist ttl.
True actually! The Scots also played a big role in the English army if I am correct. In this scenario Scotland could continue to be a torn in England's side