What If: Qing survives past 1911?

Dorozhand

Banned
I find this scenario fascinating for one reason in particular, namely the accounts of the early life of Puyi. If the Great Qing had survived long enough for him to reach majority, he might well have killed it off through his own actions. The little Xuantong Emperor was turning into quite the psychopath; as usual, thanks to the Eunuchs.
 
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Dorozhand

Banned
Care to elaborate?

Wikipedia does it pretty well:

--- Puyi's upbringing was hardly conducive to the raising of a healthy, well-balanced child. Overnight, he was treated as an emperor and unable to behave as a child. The adults in his life, except for his wet-nurse Wang Wen-Chao, were all strangers, remote, distant, and unable to discipline him. Wherever he went, grown men would kneel down in a ritual kowtow, averting their eyes until he passed. Soon the young Puyi discovered the absolute power he wielded over the eunuchs, and he frequently had them beaten for small transgressions. As an emperor, Puyi had his every whim catered to while no one ever said no to him, making him into a sadistic boy who loved to have his eunuchs flogged. The Anglo-French journalist Edward Behr wrote about Puyi's powers as emperor of China, which allowed him to fire his air-gun at anyone he liked:

"The Emperor was Divine. He could not be remonstrated with, or punished. He could only be deferentially advised against ill-treating innocent eunuchs, and if he chose to fire air-gun pellets at them, that was his prerogative."

— Edward Behr

Puyi later commented about his childhood that: "Flogging eunuchs was part of my daily routine. My cruelty and love of wielding power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any affect on me." The British historian Alex von Tunzelmann wrote that most people in the West know Puyi's story only from the 1987 film The Last Emperor, which downplays Puyi's cruelty considerably, as the real boy-emperor was far more vicious than his cinematic counterpart, which creates misunderstandings that the young Puyi was merely very spoiled.

By the age of 7, Puyi had emerged with two sides to his personality; the sadistic emperor who loved to have his eunuchs flogged, expected everyone to kowtow to him and enjoyed puppet shows and dog fights, and the boy who slept at night with Wang, suckling her breasts, and content to be loved for just once in the day. Wang was the only person capable of controlling Puyi; once, Puyi decided to "reward" a eunuch for a well done puppet show by having a cake baked for him with iron filings in it, as Puyi said "I want to see what he looks like when he eats it". With much difficulty, Wang talked Puyi out of this plan. ---
 
Why Puyi became emperor in the first place? Why not his father Zaifeng, prince Chun?
Because Cixi, that's why. What the hell was wrong with her? What was she thinking when she made two-year old the emperor!? Certainly not to control him, since she knew she'd be dead in days anyway.
 
I think it is plausible enough for the Qing dynasty to hold on for a few more years - the Wuchang uprising could have been foiled, like many similar revolts over the preceding decade.

But the speed with which the revolution spread leads me to think that such a successful revolution was only a matter of time, by the year Pu Yi ascended the throne it was already too late.
 
The Qing dynasty at this point was the Late Roman Republic. It needed to go, and to be replace with something new, something stronger. It days was always number. Only question when, by who, and what replace it.
 

RousseauX

Donor
I find this scenario fascinating for one reason in particular, namely the accounts of the early life of Puyi. If the Great Qing had survived long enough for him to reach majority, he might well have killed it off through his own actions. The little Xuantong Emperor was turning into quite the psychopath; as usual, thanks to the Eunuchs.
If the Qing had survived in 1911 Puyi would have being a puppet emperor with no power, in fact none of the late Qing emperors were particularly powerful and were very constrained by various individuals and institutions around them

By 1911 or so power at the center were in the hands of ethnic Han military officers like Yuan Shi Kai and at the local level power was held by provincial legislatures and ethnic chinese gentry. A surviving dynasty would have being effectively controlled by Yuan or someone like him: who controlled the soldiers in Beijing.

It's still possible for puyi to be killed off if he becomes too inconvenient though, his life at this point would be entirely in the hands of the army
 
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RousseauX

Donor
I think it is plausible enough for the Qing dynasty to hold on for a few more years - the Wuchang uprising could have been foiled, like many similar revolts over the preceding decade.

But the speed with which the revolution spread leads me to think that such a successful revolution was only a matter of time, by the year Pu Yi ascended the throne it was already too late.
the revolution succeeded because the Beiyang army (the most powerful army in the country) sided with the rebels and because its commander Yuan decided his political position would be better in a Republic than in a Monarchy

its' entirely possible that the Qing court gave him enough concessions to get him to back the dynasty instead, the price for that would be for Yuan to be a military dictator ruling through a puppet Puyi, at least on the short term

There might have actually being an elected parliament too after a while as Yuan tries reform the country and legitimize his own rule and that of a surviving dynasty, just as there was for a brief period of time in 1913 otl.

All in all a surviving Qing in 1911 might actually have came to resemble the Republic of China between 1911-1916. With the same actors jockeying for power in the Republic doing the same thing under a figurehead emperor. Whether the country still breaks up into warlordism is another question. China might well have stay unified if the circumstances were different.
 
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If the Qing had survived in 1911 Puyi would have being a puppet emperor with no power, in fact none of the late Qing emperors were particularly powerful and were very constrained by various individuals and institutions around them

By 1911 or so power at the center were in the hands of ethnic Han military officers like Yuan Shi Kai and at the local level to provincial legislatures and ethnic chinese gentry

It's still possible for him to be killed off if he becomes too inconvenient

the revolution succeeded because the Beiyang army (the most powerful army in the country) sided with the rebels and because its commander Yuan decided his political position would be better in a Republic than in a Monarchy

its' entirely possible that the Qing court gave him enough concessions to get him to back the dynasty instead, the price for that would be for Yuan to be a military dictator ruling through a puppet Puyi, at least on the short term

there might have actually being an elected parliament too, all in all a surviving Qing in 1911 might actually have came to resemble the Republic of China between 1911-1916.

Pretty much. Nothing stopping Yuan Shi Kai from just disbanding the Qing, making China a republic. (In name only.) Or a successful revolt against the puppet Puyi.
 
Why Puyi became emperor in the first place? Why not his father Zaifeng, prince Chun?
Because Cixi, that's why. What the hell was wrong with her? What was she thinking when she made two-year old the emperor!? Certainly not to control him, since she knew she'd be dead in days anyway.
Think of it like this,She thought she was a good ruler and would give the Chinese elites a choice her continued rule or a psychopath who would treat them the same way he treated the eunuchs.
 
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