What if Project Orion was launched in the 1970

So, some 40 to 50 Saturns V for the parts to deliver in order to build medium version and an unknown number, but probably up to a 10 more for the supply during the construction. Cost of building the Orion would probably be staggering.

Why bring all the heavy components out of the well? It would be much cheaper to get a small asteroid, ~1000 tons, and smelt the metals out. Get 3 Saturn V to lift the intercept ship and the nukes and get one that comes close to earth orbit and set a couple of ~1kt to get it to one of the Lagrange points in the earth moon system. Once there work the rock and you would have more than enough material for a long range ship.

That would also create an industry that could pay for the project by its self.

Also see the story Footfall by Pornelle and Nivin the ship was Archangel Michelle
 
Why bring all the heavy components out of the well? It would be much cheaper to get a small asteroid, ~1000 tons, and smelt the metals out. Get 3 Saturn V to lift the intercept ship and the nukes and get one that comes close to earth orbit and set a couple of ~1kt to get it to one of the Lagrange points in the earth moon system. Once there work the rock and you would have more than enough material for a long range ship.

That would also create an industry that could pay for the project by its self.

Also see the story Footfall by Pornelle and Nivin the ship was Archangel Michelle

ISRU orion is one option, but metallic asteroids in themselves will not make a strong material if molten, they contain way too much sulfur and phosphorus and way too little carbon. It'd be soft and brittle.

Still, Orion will not make a viable interstellar probe, and trying to build interstellar spacecraft before we've even settled the easiest spots in the solar system (or built a decent interplanetaty spaceship) is kind of an odd jump in priorities, like going immediately from Flyer to a damned Concorde.
 

amphibulous

Banned
Why bring all the heavy components out of the well? It would be much cheaper to get a small asteroid, ~1000 tons, and smelt the metals out.

Yes - it's not like you need a lot of precise machining and complex parts!

(This is **irony** - spaceships do, in fact, need a lot of complicated machines. And vast, vast labour in fitting them.)
 
That would also create an industry that could pay for the project by its self.

.....

Pay for itself? With what? Unobtanium? Adamantium? Ingredient X?

Are you seriously proposing that the marginal cost of extracting a metric ton of asteroid (while totally hand waving the issue of getting there with necessary heavy machinery) and transporting it from the asteroid belt to LEO would be lower than the marginal cost of extracting, say, metric ton of iron on good old Earth and transporting to LEO?

This industry you speak of not only would it not be able to pay for itself, but would needed so heavily subsidized that would make the profitability of the Nazi artificial petroleum industry seem like Apple, Intel and Microsoft taken together in comparison.
 
Ian once wrote a brilliant essay about why the Orion would not be the magic solution to all spaceflight problems as many have claimed over the decades. It was hosted on his essay page on AH.com for years, so it should be still be there. In case it would be missing along with Ian's other essays due to maintenance issues, I can send you a copy of the essay.
 
.....

Pay for itself? With what? Unobtanium? Adamantium? Ingredient X?

Are you seriously proposing that the marginal cost of extracting a metric ton of asteroid (while totally hand waving the issue of getting there with necessary heavy machinery) and transporting it from the asteroid belt to LEO would be lower than the marginal cost of extracting, say, metric ton of iron on good old Earth and transporting to LEO?

This industry you speak of not only would it not be able to pay for itself, but would needed so heavily subsidized that would make the profitability of the Nazi artificial petroleum industry seem like Apple, Intel and Microsoft taken together in comparison.

NEA =/= the asteroid belt

But it would require heavy machinery, any way, I wouldn't expect "asteroid steel" to be the first product to come out of ISRU. The first step could be extracting water from water-containing rock to cheapen LEO-GEO transits, or to shield LEO habitats.

Like I often say when it comes to the future exploitation of space, no one will make such a big investment until it is smaller.
 

amphibulous

Banned
Ian once wrote a brilliant essay about why the Orion would not be the magic solution to all spaceflight problems as many have claimed over the decades. It was hosted on his essay page on AH.com for years, so it should be still be there. In case it would be missing along with Ian's other essays due to maintenance issues, I can send you a copy of the essay.

I have no idea where this essay page would be, but I'd love a copy.

Btw - to avoid melting the thrust shield, Orion would fire a bomb only every 20 seconds, so landing is completely out.
 
NEA =/= the asteroid belt

But it would take much more effort to catch those asteroids, if I am not mistaken? They do travel a wee bit faster and on more eccentric trajectories than the asteroid belts ones, plus they are a lot smaller and contain lesser proportions of useful stuff?

Like I often say when it comes to the future exploitation of space, no one will make such a big investment until it is smaller.

Space or investment? :p
 
But it would take much more effort to catch those asteroids, if I am not mistaken? They do travel a wee bit faster and on more eccentric trajectories than the asteroid belts ones, plus they are a lot smaller and contain lesser proportions of useful stuff?

No, it's actually substantially easier to reach NEAs than main belt asteroids. There are NEAs that are much more difficult to reach, but the easiest NEAs to reach require round-trip delta-Vs less than those required to reach the Moon. These comparatively easy targets have a less eccentric orbit, an orbit that to begin with is rather closer to the Earth's, and a less inclined orbit than most main belt asteroids. Also, it's not absolute orbital speed that matters, but relative orbital speed, and the NEAs have an orbital speed much closer to Earth's than any main belt asteroid. Think about the relative delta-Vs needed to ballistically reach Pluto versus Mars, for example; the former requires much more of a kick than the latter, despite having a much smaller actual orbital speed, because the relative difference with Earth's orbital velocity is much larger (so the change in energy needed is much larger). So if you want to reach 1943 Anteros, 433 Eros, 1950 DA, etc. (NEAs), then that's easier to do than 1 Ceres, for instance, even if 2000 BD19 (also an NEA; actually, the NEA with the distinction of approaching closest to the Sun) is a lot harder. The best NEAs are easier to reach than the best main-belts, though.

Size is actually not particularly a disadvantage. It's not so much that the NEAs are smaller per se, it's that the biggest main-belt asteroids, like 4 Vesta and 1 Ceres, are larger than the largest NEAs. But 433 Eros, for instance, is 34 kilometers long and 11x11 kilometers in both other dimensions, which is quite large in an absolute sense. For that matter, even a 1x1x1 kilometer asteroid is pretty big, and there are a lot of those among the NEAs (well, asteroids pretty close to those dimensions). A particularly small asteroid may be reasonably practical to move into an Earth orbit to allow easier access, as well, something you're just not going to do with, say, Ceres, at least not in your lifetime.

Resource-wise, the bag is more mixed. We don't have a complete census of NEAs, particularly at the small end. There appear to not be many highly metallic NEAs (1950 DA is one of the only ones), but there are a few. I'm not sure about certain other types which are interesting vis-à-vis resources (like carbonaceous chondrites or other volatile-rich types). The most interesting resources for now are platinum-group metals (which tended to end up in Earth's core at the formation of Earth) and volatiles (because you need a lot of them in space). If iron and steel were ever commercially extracted and manufactured in space, it would mostly be for space-based projects and after quite a lot of development in space to enable the relative marginal cost of doing so to be very little (or an attempt to recover value from the "slag" left over after extracting PGMs from a metallic asteroid, which would mostly be iron and nickel).
 
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amphibulous

Banned
Ok -

Thanks to Petike for sending that essay. There were a lot of reasons Orion was never built, but the biggest was that the original design was predicated on fusion bombs that don't need fissioniables to set them off. Without such bombs, which we still don't have today - because they're too hard to make - you get intolerable amounts of fallout from a launch. Plus the cost goes up ten-fold.
 

Jason222

Banned
I talk about A bomb or H bomb verse could build with today technology already build. However what kill project international law which I think big mistake. It best option right now Astriond or even comet defense. I few days warn all need as far push one object out the way.
 
I talk about A bomb or H bomb verse could build with today technology already build. However what kill project international law which I think big mistake. It best option right now Astriond or even comet defense. I few days warn all need as far push one object out the way.

You need a heck of a lot more than a few days, even with Nuclear Pulse Propulsion. Project Icarus was an actual study of asteroid deflection using atomic bombs in the 1960s, written by MIT students. Icarus intended to use Saturn Vs to hurl Tsar Bomba-class bombs at its namesake, and even it required knowing about the asteroid months in advance and launching the first rocket 73 days ahead of asteroid impact. The laws of orbital mechanics mean that an Orion would have similar constraints. Not to mention needing to start the Orion program years in advance.

If you want asteroid or comet deflection, the tech theoretically exists even without Orion, though it needs testing.
 
If Project Orion was given the green light - how would have affected things sociologically, economically, cold war, space travel, war, etc...

If you could ask Freeman or George Dyson - what would you ask?

I am curious to know more from your perspective - what life on board an Orion craft may have been like - I have read/seen it would be a massive ship - contain even a barber shop etc... I am interested to know what jobs or new jobs would have been made from a spaceship like Orion.

- A bomb jamming/anti bomb disposal
- A medical doctor responsible for treating radiation sickness on a daily basis.
- Counsellors on board to help people overcome the consistent bursts or fear of exploding atomic bombs happening outside
- Would there have been schools onboard?
- Would it have been used as a weapon?

Keen to see your responses - I will actually be looking to interview Freeman Dyson and George Dyson shortly...


Love to have some feedback - on this thread here https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=9158781#post9158781
 
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