What if Peter III and Catherine had a son Born earlier

As we all know Peter III and Catherine hated each other and had an awful relationship and both had many affairs. In fact it took awhile for them to have children which one survive to adulthood and later became emperor. So what if for some reason despite the unhappiness they were able to have a son born earlier.



So how would things change? what are the effects? this might be ASB

Say they had a son born in the 1746 or somewhere in the 1740s Who would he married?
 
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I don't see their relations changing with any way if Paul Petrovich would had born some years earlier.

More intresting question would be what if Paul would had born as girl or not born all so there wouldn't be any direct descendant of them left when Catherine the Great kicks a bucket.
 
Well if he was incapable of consummating the marriage then how do you expect a son to be born earlier?
Actually, for the first 9 years of his marriage he never slept anywhere BUT his wife's bed.

As for Pyotr's phimosis, it is never mentioned or attested by anyone who'd be in a position to know - Catherine and Dr. Lestocq make no mention of it beyond the latter recommending to Elizabeth Petrovna the marriage be delayed for unspecified reasons. The phimosis is first mentioned by a Frenchman, Jean Henri de Castéra, in a historiography of Catherine published after her death.

It's been suggested that what caused Pyotr's coldness towards his wife had to with his psychological makeup. Before he had smallpox he and Catherine were "friendly" if not "friends", but to him that she didn't visit him while he was ill showed him that she was just like everyone else he'd encountered in his life so far (rather than, AFAIK, she hadn't had smallpox), that only liked him when they could boss him around.

Catherine didn't help matters when, while he was recovering, she was taken to see him. Instead of saying anything, she just stared at him/recoiled at the scars, which further cemented his dislike of her.

Then there's Maria Semyonovna Choglakova (Catherine the Great's chamberlain). She was the one who had to make sure Pyotr-Catherine were in bed by "curfew" each night. In this, she was undermined by Pyotr's former nanny, Maria Kruse (née Frantz, mother-in-law to Elizabeth Petrovna's valet, Karl von Sievers) who would bring in Pyotr's toy soldiers every night (to spite Choglakova).

So, prevent Catherine's reaction to his smallpox (perhaps he never gets it, or he only gets it mildly) and get rid of Kruse (and Choglakova too, but since she's Elizabeth Petrovna's cousin, I guess that would be harder). And you could potentially have Pyotr - if he doesn't have phimosis (and while it's hinted at in Catherine's autobiography, that wasn't published until the 1840s IIRC, and regarding Pyotr, she's not what I'd call a "reliable" witness) - having kids by 1750 at least
 
Paul III they said was like Catherine's kid with another man. Some rumors which Catherine promoted to like so she gets the throne.
As we all know Peter III and Catherine hated each other and had an awful relationship and both had many affairs. In fact it took awhile for them to have children which one survive to adulthood and later became emperor. So what if for some reason despite the unhappiness they were able to have a son born earlier.



So how would things change? what are the effects? this might be ASB

Say they had a son born in the 1746 or somewhere in the 1740s Who would he married?
 
And yet most contemporaries agreed that Paul looked like Pyotr IIRC
Yea,

Well if Paul I is legal age at the time catherine attempts to do her thing or coup Peter III his dad, probably he'll have a better relationship to him than her cause like Cathernie hummiliated her every single time she can do. Probably he'll continue stripping the nobles power and centralize everything like what his dad is doing also reforms going smoothly as possible probably.

Catherine doesnt get power, which is a bit of a yay for me, Paul I gets it or he can return it if Peter alive
 
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Yea,

Well if Paul I is legal age at the time catherine attempts to do her thing or coup Peter III his dad, probably he'll have a better relationship to him than her cause like Cathernie hummiliated her every single time she can do. Probably he'll continue stripping the nobles power and centralize everything like what his dad is doing also reforms going smoothly as possible probably.

Catherine doesnt get power, which is a bit of a yay for me, Paul I gets it or he can return it if Peter alive
If he is of age then the coup is extremely unlikely to start with.
 
And yet most contemporaries agreed that Paul looked like Pyotr IIRC
I mean, we also have the surviving portraits to see for ourselves, and I don't particularly see any stunning resemblance to Peter in Paul. Plus Peter and Catherine were second cousins, so a child of Catherine's might have some of Peter's features even if it wasn't his child. I also find it odd that Peter never had any illegitimate children despite having mistresses, but that's only circumstantial evidence.

I know a few modern biographers do believe that Sergei Saltykov was Paul's biological father. And while it might initially seem a little odd that the ugly Paul doesn't resemble the handsome Saltykov either, Catherine does note in her memoirs that Saltykov's brother was hideously ugly, so it's perfectly possible for Sergei to have fathered an ugly baby.

Bear in mind that Peter also publicly acknowledged (the short-lived) Anna 'Petrovna' as his child, despite the fact her father was probably Stanislaw Poniatowski, so clearly Peter wasn't against the principle of the thing. Even Peter's aunt was forced to treat Anna as legitimate, even though everybody knew she wasn't. Granted, this is a rather thorny issue as Catherine would have had much more leeway, socially speaking, to have affairs once she'd given birth to an heir. But by all accounts she was having affairs before Paul's birth anyway, so it's not like she was being that careful to begin with.

Ultimately, we don't really know, honestly. I do wonder if Peter was physically or psychologically able to father a child, given the circumstances. I don't think he was as immature as we are sometimes led to believe, but he still strikes me as a little childish.
 
Well if he was incapable of consummating the marriage then how do you expect a son to be born earlier?
There is no real evidence of Pyotr being incapable of consummating the marriage. In fact, he was known to have had a significant mistress, which shies away from this assertion.
im that she didn't visit him while he was ill showed him that she was just like everyone else he'd encountered in his life so far (rather than, AFAIK, she hadn't had smallpox), that only liked him when they could boss him around.

Catherine didn't help matters when, while he was recovering, she was taken to see him. Instead of saying anything, she just stared at him/recoiled at the scars, which further cemented his dislike of her.

Then there's Maria Semyonovna Choglakova (Catherine the Great's chamberlain). She was the one who had to make sure Pyotr-Catherine were in bed by "curfew" each night. In this, she was undermined by Pyotr's former nanny, Maria Kruse (née Frantz, mother-in-law to Elizabeth Petrovna's valet, Karl von Sievers) who would bring in Pyotr's toy soldiers every night (to spite Choglakova).
Pyotr's "toy soldiers" is a term that should not be used lightly. They were not toys, they were miniatures for war planning and tactical review and he used them as such.
Paul III they said was like Catherine's kid with another man. Some rumors which Catherine promoted to like so she gets the throne.
Rumors that did not exist until after Pyotr III died and which emerged from pro-Catherine sources. If you look to other cases like the birth of James Francis Edward Stuart you notice that rumors were immediately propogated.
And yet most contemporaries agreed that Paul looked like Pyotr IIRC
Indeed, and few neutral sources supported any rumor against Paul's parentage.
Yea,

Well if Paul I is legal age at the time catherine attempts to do her thing or coup Peter III his dad, probably he'll have a better relationship to him than her cause like Cathernie hummiliated her every single time she can do. Probably he'll continue stripping the nobles power and centralize everything like what his dad is doing also reforms going smoothly as possible probably.

Catherine doesnt get power, which is a bit of a yay for me, Paul I gets it or he can return it if Peter alive
In OTL, Pyotr was fairly accepted by the bulk of Russian society. The coup against him was led by a small subset of dissidents who had been personally aggrieved by Pyotr. The Guards had fallen into disrepair and become nothing more than overpaid security guards rather than a true military unit. Pyotr reintroduced discipline to them and they reacted poorly. This coup was more similar to a janissary coup than a popular revolt. If Paul is of age then the counter-reaction to the Guards would be significantly stronger. Catherine has no legitimacy if there is a real available alternative to Pyotr.
If he is of age then the coup is extremely unlikely to start with.
Exactly
I mean, we also have the surviving portraits to see for ourselves, and I don't particularly see any stunning resemblance to Peter in Paul. Plus Peter and Catherine were second cousins, so a child of Catherine's might have some of Peter's features even if it wasn't his child. I also find it odd that Peter never had any illegitimate children despite having mistresses, but that's only circumstantial evidence.

I know a few modern biographers do believe that Sergei Saltykov was Paul's biological father. And while it might initially seem a little odd that the ugly Paul doesn't resemble the handsome Saltykov either, Catherine does note in her memoirs that Saltykov's brother was hideously ugly, so it's perfectly possible for Sergei to have fathered an ugly baby.

Bear in mind that Peter also publicly acknowledged (the short-lived) Anna 'Petrovna' as his child, despite the fact her father was probably Stanislaw Poniatowski, so clearly Peter wasn't against the principle of the thing. Even Peter's aunt was forced to treat Anna as legitimate, even though everybody knew she wasn't. Granted, this is a rather thorny issue as Catherine would have had much more leeway, socially speaking, to have affairs once she'd given birth to an heir. But by all accounts she was having affairs before Paul's birth anyway, so it's not like she was being that careful to begin with.

Ultimately, we don't really know, honestly. I do wonder if Peter was physically or psychologically able to father a child, given the circumstances. I don't think he was as immature as we are sometimes led to believe, but he still strikes me as a little childish.
Portraits from distinct artists and periods are not the most reliable source. Pyotr and Catherine were related certainly, but they also looked different. Catherine came from Holsteiner and Prussian blood whereas Pyotr came from Holsteiner and Russian blood. There also were rumors that at the time of the coup, Pyotr's mistress was pregnant and that Pyotr was planning to divorce Catherine and marry his mistress (who was a Russian noblewoman).

Catherine is one of the least reliable sources.

Although the paternity is doubted, that doubt originates from Catherine who did everything to distance herself from her husband.

To put the immature behavior of Pytor in context, much of the material on him originates from explicitly anti-Petrine sources. Additionally, things like him drinking are overblown out of proportion. His toy soldiers are also something that have been taken out of any context.
 
There is no real evidence of Pyotr being incapable of consummating the marriage. In fact, he was known to have had a significant mistress, which shies away from this assertion.

Pyotr's "toy soldiers" is a term that should not be used lightly. They were not toys, they were miniatures for war planning and tactical review and he used them as such.

Rumors that did not exist until after Pyotr III died and which emerged from pro-Catherine sources. If you look to other cases like the birth of James Francis Edward Stuart you notice that rumors were immediately propogated.

Indeed, and few neutral sources supported any rumor against Paul's parentage.

In OTL, Pyotr was fairly accepted by the bulk of Russian society.

The Russian nobility wanted to erect his statue of a pure gold for his decree about freedom of nobility.


The coup against him was led by a small subset of dissidents who had been personally aggrieved by Pyotr. The Guards had fallen into disrepair and become nothing more than overpaid security guards rather than a true military unit.
They were not even the security guards in the modern sense. Just a bunch of the spoiled scoundrels incapable of conducting any military service and even functions of the Guards. When it was time for the duty in the palace, a guardsman was going there accompanied by a servant carrying his musket, etc. It is just that, AFAIK, at that time they were pretty much the only military force in the capital.
One of Peter’s fatal mistake was an attempt to introduce some discipline and, potentially, send them to war. To do this he would have to start with creating his own loyal regiments as Anne did. As an option, he could call the army regiments to St-Petersburg. Few regiments of the veterans of the 7YW with Rumyantsev in charge and there would be no coup.



Pyotr reintroduced discipline to them and they reacted poorly. This coup was more similar to a janissary coup than a popular revolt.

Which is exactly what it was.

If Paul is of age then the counter-reaction to the Guards would be significantly stronger. Catherine has no legitimacy if there is a real available alternative to Pyotr.

Exactly

Portraits from distinct artists and periods are not the most reliable source. Pyotr and Catherine were related certainly, but they also looked different. Catherine came from Holsteiner and Prussian blood whereas Pyotr came from Holsteiner and Russian blood. There also were rumors that at the time of the coup, Pyotr's mistress was pregnant and that Pyotr was planning to divorce Catherine and marry his mistress (who was a Russian noblewoman).

Official portraits of that period were very specific form of art. A painter had to adjust the original to specific cannons while still preserving certain degree of a recognizability. An “ultimate example” was portrait of Paul I with almost straight nose. 😂

1659751593112.png

It is hard to tell for sure with PIII and CII but we do know that the later “known” appearances of Suvorov, Kutuzov and Barclay had very little in common with the originals. So it is more than just possible that portraits of PIII and CII also had been “improved” along the similar lines.


Catherine is one of the least reliable sources.
You are very kind. 😂

Although the paternity is doubted, that doubt originates from Catherine who did everything to distance herself from her husband.

To put the immature behavior of Pytor in context, much of the material on him originates from explicitly anti-Petrine sources. Additionally, things like him drinking are overblown out of proportion. His toy soldiers are also something that have been taken out of any context.
“Immature” behavior? Similarities with the behavior of his grandfather (which lasted all the way to PI’s death) are simply scary, except that PIII was never close, but in the case of PI most of the historians found them either excusable or straight admirable and even managed to find a deep political, cultural and even religious sense.

Practically everything we know about PIII came from his enemies (and most of these enemies had been scumbags, especially his wife). Except for his legislative acts the most important of which CII “appropriated”.
 
Rumors that did not exist until after Pyotr III died and which emerged from pro-Catherine sources. If you look to other cases like the birth of James Francis Edward Stuart you notice that rumors were immediately propogated.
Yes Rumors so Catherine his mom gets like all the power

In OTL, Pyotr was fairly accepted by the bulk of Russian society. The coup against him was led by a small subset of dissidents who had been personally aggrieved by Pyotr. The Guards had fallen into disrepair and become nothing more than overpaid security guards rather than a true military unit. Pyotr reintroduced discipline to them and they reacted poorly. This coup was more similar to a janissary coup than a popular revolt. If Paul is of age then the counter-reaction to the Guards would be significantly stronger. Catherine has no legitimacy if there is a real available alternative to Pyotr.
Technically, yea, he was popular with the commoners, peasants serfs merchants etc iirc, and provincial nobles, but he practically made the guards his enemies a few rich peeps who are "serving" in the army. Technially he had some issues with the church but that's it
They were not even the security guards in the modern sense. Just a bunch of the spoiled scoundrels incapable of conducting any military service and even functions of the Guards. When it was time for the duty in the palace, a guardsman was going there accompanied by a servant carrying his musket, etc. It is just that, AFAIK, at that time they were pretty much the only military force in the capital.
One of Peter’s fatal mistake was an attempt to introduce some discipline and, potentially, send them to war. To do this he would have to start with creating his own loyal regiments as Anne did. As an option, he could call the army regiments to St-Petersburg. Few regiments of the veterans of the 7YW with Rumyantsev in charge and there would be no coup.
So if he put like some loyal peeps there the coup would be bothced up?
 
The Russian nobility wanted to erect his statue of a pure gold for his decree about freedom of nobility.
Is it the freedom from like mandatory military service, whree he abolished it iirc, what is it if not then?


Peter III's Manifesto Freeing Nobles from Obligatory Service, 1762​





Peter III's Manifesto Freeing Nobles from Obligatory Service: 1762

During the first months of his reign Peter III issued a series of decrees evidently intended to create a favorable impression within the ruling elite. Most notable was Peter's manifesto freeing the nobility from its obligatory service to the state. The idea of a noble "emancipation" seems to have had its origins in the circle of Count Roman Vorontsov who, as father of the Emperor's lover, Elizaveta Vorontsova, had his ear during this period. Peter announced his intention to free the nobles from service to the Senate on January 17th, 1762, but it was only a month later, on February 18th that the actual decree was promulagated. Peter's Manifesto received a warm reception with the rank and file nobility, some of whom availed themselves of the opportunity it provided to return to their estates. However, the measure was not nearly enough to offset the negative impression created by Peter's eccentricities and despotic tendencies, particularly among the influencial elites who would have been least inclined to enter into premature retirement. More and more the elites looked toward Peter's estranged wife Catherine as the best hope for stable and enlightened rule.


All Europe, indeed the greater part of the world, knows what difficulties and effort that Peter the Great, wise monarch of immortal memory, Our dear sovereign grandfather and Emperor of all the Russias, had to expend in his efforts, solely with a view to bringing benefit and welfare to the fatherland, to introduce into Russia advanced knowledge of military, civil, and political affairs.

To achieve this goal it was essential first to coerce the nobles, the chief body of the state, and convince them of the great advantages enjoyed by enlightened states over those countless peoples who are sunk in the depths of ignorance. Because the circumstances of the time then demanded extreme sacrifices from Russian Nobles, he [Peter I] did not show any mercy towards them, he forced them into military and civil service, and furthermore required noble youth to study the various liberal arts and also useful skills; he sent [some of] them to European countries, and, to achieve the same goal as rapidly as possible, established various schools in Russia itself.

It is true that in the beginning these innovations were burdensome and unendurable for the nobles, as they were deprived of peace, were forced to leave their homes, were obliged against their will to serve in the army or to perform other service, and were required to register their children. In consequence some nobles tried to evade these requirements, for which they were fined or even forfeited their estates, since they had shown themselves indifferent to their own best interest and that of their descendants. These demands, though burdensome in the beginning and accompanied by force, proved to be much advantage during the reigns of Peter the Great's successors, especially during the reign of Our dear aunt, Empress Elizaveta Petrovna, of glorious memory, who followed in the footsteps of her sovereign father, who supported the knowledge of political affairs and who, by her protection, extended much useful knowledge throughout Russia. We can look with pride at everything that has occurred, and every true son of the country will agree that great advantages have resulted from all this. Manners have been improved; knowledge has replaced illiteracy; devotion and zeal for military affairs resulted in the appearance of many experienced and brave generals; civil and political concerns have attracted many intelligent people; in a word, noble thoughts have penetrated the hearts of all true Russian patriots who have revealed toward Us their unlimited devotion, love, zeal, and fervor. Because of all these reasons We judge it to be no longer necessary to compel the nobles into service, as has been the practice hitherto. Because of these circumstances, and by virtue of the authority granted to Us by the almighty, We grant freedom and liberty to the entire Russian nobility, by Our High Imperial Grace, from this movement and forever, to all future generations. They may continue to perform service in Our Empire or in other European countries friendly to our State on the basis of the following rules:

1. All nobles who are presently in our service may continue as long as they wish or as long as their health may permit; those serving in the army may request release or furlough during a campaign or three months before a campaign; they should wait for release until the end of a war; those serving in the army may request release or retirement permits from their superiors and must wait for these permits; those serving Us in various capacities in the first eight ranks must apply for their release directly to Us; other ranks will be released by the departments for which they work.

2. At their retirement We will reward all nobles who serve Us well and faultlessly by promoting them to a higher rank, provided they have served at least one year in the rank from which they retired; those who wish to retire from military service and enter civil service, provided there is a vacancy for them, should be rewarded only if they have served three years in a given rank.

3. Those nobles who have retired or those who have terminated their military or civil service for Us, but who should express a desire to re-enter the military service, shall be admitted, provided they prove worthy of those ranks to which they belong and provided they will not be elevated to ranks higher than those of their co-servicemen who were equal in rank at the retirement; if they should be elevated in rank this should go into effect from the day they re-join the service over those who have retired and also make it possible for those who have retired from one service to join other services.

4. Those nobles who, freed from Our service, who wish to travel to other European countries should immediately receive the necessary passports from Our Foreign College under one condition: namely, that should ever a pressing need arise, those nobles shall return home whenever they are notified. Everyone should fulfill this request as soon as possible; those who fail to comply with it will have their property confiscated.

5. ... [on Russians who would serve in other states]

6. By virtue of this manifesto, no Russian nobleman will ever be forced to serve against his will; nor will any of Our administrative departments make use of them except in emergency cases and then only if We personally should summon them; this rule also applies to the nobility of the Smolensk area. An exception to this rule is St. Petersburg and Moscow, where an ukaz of the Sovereign Emperor Peter I stipulated that some men from among the retired nobles should be made available for various needs at the Senate and at the [Heraldic] Office; We amend this Imperial rule by decreeing that henceforth there should be selected annually thirty men to serve in the Senate and twenty to serve in the Office. These men should be chosen by the Heraldic Office from among the nobles living in the provinces and not from those still in service. No one should be designated by name for this duty. Nobles themselves should decide who should be selected in the districts and provinces. Local officials should forward the names of those so selected to the Heraldic Office and also provide those selected with needed items.

7. Although, by this gracious manifesto we grant forever freedom to all of Our Russian nobles, except freeholders [odnodvortsy], Our fatherly concern for them as well as for their children will continue. These latter, We decree, should henceforth, whenever they reach twelve years of age, be reported to the Heraldic Office in districts, provinces, or cities or wherever is most convenient. From their parents or relatives who are bringing them up, information should be obtained about the level of the children's education up to the age of twelve and where they would like to continue their studies, whether within Our State in various institutions We have founded, in European countries, or, should the means of their parents allow it, in their own homes by experienced and skillful teachers. No nobleman should keep his children uneducated under the penalty of Our anger. Those noblemen who have under 1000 serfs should report their children to Our Cadet Corps of the Nobility, where they will learn everything befitting a nobleman and where they will be educated with the utmost care. Following his education each nobleman will assume his rank in accordance with his dignity and reward, and subsequently each may enter and continue his service as indicated above.

8. Those nobles who presently are in Our military service as soldiers or non-commissioned officers below the rank of oberofitser, that is, those who have failed to attain officer rank, should not be allowed to retire unless they have served twelve years in the army. 9. We grant this gracious act to all of Our nobles for eternity as a fundamental and unalterable law; by Our Imperial word We pledge to observe it in its entirety in the most solemn and irrevocable manner. Our rightful successors should not alter it in any way whatsoever, as their adherence to this decree will serve as an indispensable support for the autocratic throne of All Russia. We hope that in return for this act Russian nobles, realizing what great concern We have shown toward them and toward their descendants, will continue to serve Us loyally and zealously and will not withdraw from Our service; on the contrary, that they will seek the service eagerly and will continue it as long as possible, and will educate their children attentively in useful knowledge; those who will not perform any service will also lead purposeless lives and will not educate their children in any useful subject. Such people are not concerned with the general good, and We order all true sons of the Fatherland to despise and demolish [!] them. We will not allow such people any access to Our court, nor will We tolerate their presence at public assemblies and festivals.
 
th the behavior of his grandfather (which lasted all the way to PI’s death) are simply scary, except that PIII was never close, but in the case of PI most of the historians found them either excusable or straight admirable and even managed to find a deep political, cultural and even religious sense.

Practically everything we know about PIII came from his enemies (and most of these enemies had been scumbags, especially his wife). Except for his legislative acts the most important of w
By context, I was saying that the description of his behavior as immature comes from inaccurate and overblown sources. But yeah, you bring up a good example. His grandfather and Charles XII went on a binge drinking spree through Stockholm. For rulers to take some liberties in life is not unknown. So whether or not Pyotr had some tendencies that are not emulative of a stoic despot should not matter. Because the image of stoic despot is itself nothing more than an image, its imagined, not real.
Yes Rumors so Catherine his mom gets like all the power


Technically, yea, he was popular with the commoners, peasants serfs merchants etc iirc, and provincial nobles, but he practically made the guards his enemies a few rich peeps who are "serving" in the army. Technially he had some issues with the church but that's it

So if he put like some loyal peeps there the coup would be bothced up?
Pyotr would probably be better off disbanding the guards altogether and then reforming them.
Is it the freedom from like mandatory military service, whree he abolished it iirc, what is it if not then?
That was the biggest liberty, but I believe he also gave them other stuff. Pyotr was ultimately so popular with the nobility that Catherine had to give them hundreds of thousands of serfs to compensate for deposing him. The granting of those serfs and the destruction of many ancient serf rights by Catherine triggered the rebellion against her.
 
That was the biggest liberty, but I believe he also gave them other stuff. Pyotr was ultimately so popular with the nobility that Catherine had to give them hundreds of thousands of serfs to compensate for deposing him. The granting of those serfs and the destruction of many ancient serf rights by Catherine triggered the rebellion against her.
Technically Pugachev iirc, where he claims he is like Peter III and is like convinced the peeps that he is gonna sign in like some sort of decree that will free all serfs and abolish serfdom. Which is why he got deposed by Catherine and the "evil nobles", sounds like good for the rebels to say at least.
 
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That was the biggest liberty, but I believe he also gave them other stuff. Pyotr was ultimately so popular with the nobility that Catherine had to give them hundreds of thousands of serfs to compensate for deposing him. The granting of those serfs and the destruction of many ancient serf rights by Catherine triggered the rebellion against her.
One of the other reforms (IIRC) was that Pyotr scrapped the ability of the Church to keep serfs (ICR the exact terminology. Away from my PC ATM), which naturally pissed the church off. More than half the serfs that Katya gave away were ones Pyotr had just freed from the church
 
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