What if Olaf II Haraldsson had lived?

If Olaf won the Battle of the Helgea? I've got this TL idea starting to form where maybe if he survives he'll use it as an excuse to invade Denmark and use his marriage to Olof's daughter as a claim to Sweden, therefore reuniting Scandinavia.

Would that work? And what other butterflies may happen if he lives?
 
Not only Sweden was far to be an unified kingdom then, but the scandinavian structures (except partially Danemark) are still largely what you could call a "popular kingship". I doubt matrimonial union could serve to enforce a lasting political union.

Now, the battle of the Helgeå was indecisive, Geste of Danes and Anglo-Saxon chronicle saying respectivly that Anglo-Danes won, and that Norse-Svear won.
The thing is, it shows the power of Knut : his kingdoms are more cohesive (by exemple, not having to deal with powerful sub-kings as in Norway, or even more Sweden), more ships, etc.

Admitting Olaf and Anund lost the battle OTL, and win ITTL, I don't see how much they could put an invasion of Danemark or England.
Admittedly, Knut could be killed during the battle and Olaf could prevent his sucessor to enforce a claim on England (like it happened for Knut III), but I really don't think an invasion and conquest of Danemark is possible.

If he lives, christianisation and unification of Norway could take longer : interestingly, it was the danish threat that managed to unify the sub-kingdoms and lord and to give a better assise to royal power.
A related idea would be the modification (maybe butterfly) of scandinavian feudality model of the "saint king" whom Olaf was the paradigm.
 
Not only Sweden was far to be an unified kingdom then, but the scandinavian structures (except partially Danemark) are still largely what you could call a "popular kingship". I doubt matrimonial union could serve to enforce a lasting political union.

Now, the battle of the Helgeå was indecisive, Geste of Danes and Anglo-Saxon chronicle saying respectivly that Anglo-Danes won, and that Norse-Svear won.
The thing is, it shows the power of Knut : his kingdoms are more cohesive (by exemple, not having to deal with powerful sub-kings as in Norway, or even more Sweden), more ships, etc.

Admitting Olaf and Anund lost the battle OTL, and win ITTL, I don't see how much they could put an invasion of Danemark or England.
Admittedly, Knut could be killed during the battle and Olaf could prevent his sucessor to enforce a claim on England (like it happened for Knut III), but I really don't think an invasion and conquest of Danemark is possible.

If he lives, christianisation and unification of Norway could take longer : interestingly, it was the danish threat that managed to unify the sub-kingdoms and lord and to give a better assise to royal power.
A related idea would be the modification (maybe butterfly) of scandinavian feudality model of the "saint king" whom Olaf was the paradigm.

So the whole idea is pretty much trashed then? :(

What about his son, Magnus? Didn't he end up with Norway-Denmark until Harald Hardrada took over? Couldn't he of kept his throne (he beats Sweyn and Harald) and then we find a way to butterfly away his death? (I think it was sickness.)
 
Couldn't he of kept his throne (he beats Sweyn and Harald) and then we find a way to butterfly away his death? (I think it was sickness.)

It is unclear how he died, so you decide of he's not killed in battle/recovers/not dies accidently, and nobody could really blame you about your choice.

At the date of his death, tough, Harald (I thwas already in power in Norway with the support of local earls and Magnus eventually accepted to partage the kingship with him in order to be able to deal with Danemark.

At this point, then, you would still end with a division of both kingdoms.
Of course, if he defeats Sveyn and dies afterwards, probably Harald would be able to kept the norwegian kingship and still enforce Magnus claim as he tried to do OTL.

I would point however, that it would delay the unification of Norway (basically, Danemark as richer and more structured would be the political center of such union, letting the norvegian elites more autonomous) and therefore increase the risk of a local uprising with a new king appearing.

And the claim on England won't make things easier.

It's not to be trashed out (Damn, I really look like I'm trying to do so, on all of your threads...Hope it doesn't bother you. That's really not I want to do), but a lasting unifications in this situation seems unlikely. However a more regularly enforced claim would have consequences even if unsucessful.
- Delayed unification of Noway
- Less important Dane expansion in Sweden
- Eventually (while you would probably need other PoDs), could lead a more powerful Norway to eventually enforce a claim that didn't disappeared.
 
It is unclear how he died, so you decide of he's not killed in battle/recovers/not dies accidently, and nobody could really blame you about your choice.

If I did this, I think i'd go with the 'falling off a ship' one. It seems easy to butterfly away (although i'd need a reason).

At the date of his death, tough, Harald (I thwas already in power in Norway with the support of local earls and Magnus eventually accepted to partage the kingship with him in order to be able to deal with Danemark.

At this point, then, you would still end with a division of both kingdoms.
Of course, if he defeats Sveyn and dies afterwards, probably Harald would be able to kept the norwegian kingship and still enforce Magnus claim as he tried to do OTL.

Alright, well what if Harald dies as a mercenary in Byzantium? Just another casualty in battle? That way Magnus' claims in Norway aren't touched, and he only has to deal with Sweyn.

I would point however, that it would delay the unification of Norway (basically, Danemark as richer and more structured would be the political center of such union, letting the norvegian elites more autonomous) and therefore increase the risk of a local uprising with a new king appearing.

And the claim on England won't make things easier.

What if he gave the Norwegian nobles more power to appease them and gain their loyalties? Sort of like a underpowered Sejm?

And maybe the claim he has on England won't be a bad thing. If he can beat William to it, maybe some of the English nobles will be more supportive of him, seeing as he's got an actual claim to it (unlike Harald, who just sort of appointed it on himself).

It's not to be trashed out (Damn, I really look like I'm trying to do so, on all of your threads...Hope it doesn't bother you. That's really not I want to do), but a lasting unifications in this situation seems unlikely. However a more regularly enforced claim would have consequences even if unsucessful.
- Delayed unification of Noway
- Less important Dane expansion in Sweden
- Eventually (while you would probably need other PoDs), could lead a more powerful Norway to eventually enforce a claim that didn't disappeared.

Don't worry! You've been really helpful and I want this to be as realistic as possible! I understand that it's unlikely, but i've read a few really good timelines where it's been pulled off. :D
 
Alright, well what if Harald dies as a mercenary in Byzantium? Just another casualty in battle? That way Magnus' claims in Norway aren't touched, and he only has to deal with Sweyn.
I'm afraid that is still possible that a Norse earl or important man would rise. Harald was as related to royal families and increased his prestige and his wealth in Miklagarðr, and a revolt wouldn't be as important as OTL, but Magnus claims to Knut's demesne and a faster pace of christianisation and political growth threatened Norse earls.

At best, he won't have a clear candidacy and an "headless" revolt or hostility he would still have to deal with.

What if he gave the Norwegian nobles more power to appease them and gain their loyalties? Sort of like a underpowered Sejm?
It's possible, yes. It would turn sooner or later to an autonomous Norway and after his death, with a probable separation, but at short term it could indeed work.

And maybe the claim he has on England won't be a bad thing. If he can beat William to it, maybe some of the English nobles will be more supportive of him, seeing as he's got an actual claim to it (unlike Harald, who just sort of appointed it on himself).
The english nobles didn't liked him. At all. Magnus had the brightest idea, threatening them with an invasion as they choose Edward as king.
And for his claim, he didn't had one either or at least it was the same than Harald III : the succession of Knut (yes, I know it wasn't direct, but it makes sense in cultural context).

For William, unless Magnus or Magnus' heir choose to do it the dumb way, he would certainly do the same thing than Harald : ally with Normans and plan share the kingdom.
But let's admit that he beat everyone. Seeing his reputation, Magnus is gonna deal with at least the same rebellion that William faced.

And while Normans never had to went far to deal with AS uprising, while still able to preventing Normandy going totally on the loose; I'm not sure Magnus could deal with and revolts in England, and in Danemark, and possibly in Norway.
 
I'm afraid that is still possible that a Norse earl or important man would rise. Harald was as related to royal families and increased his prestige and his wealth in Miklagarðr, and a revolt wouldn't be as important as OTL, but Magnus claims to Knut's demesne and a faster pace of christianisation and political growth threatened Norse earls.

At best, he won't have a clear candidacy and an "headless" revolt or hostility he would still have to deal with.

Let's say for some reason none of them do. Einar Thambarskelfir was a powerful jarl in Norway, and he's the one who gave Magnus his throne! So maybe since Harald died down south and didn't kill him, Einar could be sort of a underking in Norway to help with that problem?

It's possible, yes. It would turn sooner or later to an autonomous Norway and after his death, with a probable separation, but at short term it could indeed work.

My plan was for it to kind of all been centralized by the time of his death (not fully), and for him to have a son to take over once he's passed. Norway would eventually get independence

The english nobles didn't liked him. At all. Magnus had the brightest idea, threatening them with an invasion as they choose Edward as king.
And for his claim, he didn't had one either or at least it was the same than Harald III : the succession of Knut (yes, I know it wasn't direct, but it makes sense in cultural context).

His claim was that Hathacnut (Cnut's son), who was king of England at the time, made the deal that if one of them die, the other gets his throne. Harald based his claim off of that. (You probably already know this though).

For William, unless Magnus or Magnus' heir choose to do it the dumb way, he would certainly do the same thing than Harald : ally with Normans and plan share the kingdom.
But let's admit that he beat everyone. Seeing his reputation, Magnus is gonna deal with at least the same rebellion that William faced.

Yeah, that could work. The Danish and the Normans ally and take England together.

And while Normans never had to went far to deal with AS uprising, while still able to preventing Normandy going totally on the loose; I'm not sure Magnus could deal with and revolts in England, and in Danemark, and possibly in Norway.

Well, maybe he could peacefully negotiate with Sweyn (or kill him off) to get that out of the way, and get Danemark under solid control. With Einar and some of the Norwegian nobles under his thumb in that Sejm sort of thing, Norway would quiet down. And then if he is in England, with William's help they could reestablish peace there.

Is that all possible? I know it's not plausible, but some of the best TL's i've read aren't plausible.
 
Let's say for some reason none of them do. Einar Thambarskelfir was a powerful jarl in Norway, and he's the one who gave Magnus his throne! So maybe since Harald died down south and didn't kill him, Einar could be sort of a underking in Norway to help with that problem?
Why not? Of course, doing that would probably means that Magnus suzerainty over Norway would be more nominal, and it would be more of a Dane kingdom with suzerainty over Norway.
But it could work.

My plan was for it to kind of all been centralized by the time of his death (not fully), and for him to have a son to take over once he's passed. Norway would eventually get independence
That's definitely unlikely. Centralized and medieval states are mutually contradictory.
For a centralized state, you need a strong bureaucracy, an unchallenged rule, and no concession made to noble's power.
Danemark does not have the material, and I dare say, the mental structures needed for that at this time, as almost all the vassalic/semi-feudal/feudal states.

The best you could reach, and I point *best*, would be an unified rule without sub-kingdoms (de jure or de facto) in Danemark, while Dane nobility still playing an important and autonomous role.

His claim was that Hathacnut (Cnut's son), who was king of England at the time, made the deal that if one of them die, the other gets his throne. Harald based his claim off of that. (You probably already know this though).
But it's a totally legit claim, following the "rules" of germanic kingship. The sucession of titles wasn't strictly dynastic (even if the same dynasties often took the crown) but by the kingship.
Resuming it : if a king of Norway became king of England, his sucessor , even if hewasn't his son or else, could claim England as it's going along with the kingship of Norway.

Yeah, that could work. The Danish and the Normans ally and take England together.
Until tensions arose, of course. The division of England between two conquerors never ended that well.

Well, maybe he could peacefully negotiate with Sweyn (or kill him off) to get that out of the way, and get Danemark under solid control. With Einar and some of the Norwegian nobles under his thumb in that Sejm sort of thing, Norway would quiet down.
Well, he admittedly possibly settled with Sveyn, making him more or less a de facto co-king in Danemark. I would think that is not "solid control".
He could kill Sveyn, but Danes didn't liked the idea of Magnus being too much, and would propose lead to another candidate.
That doesn't mean Magnus can't prevail, but solid control seems out of reach.

And Einar being sub-king of all Norway, aka the power base of Magnus, isn't something I would call "being under his thumb" or "quiet".

And then if he is in England, with William's help they could reestablish peace there.
William isn't to be too much trusted : OTL demonstrated that he wanted as much England he could have and that he had the forces for that. I could see Normans pretexting revolts in Dane England to expand their authority.
 
Top