what if Ogedai Khan hadn't died?

What would have happened if Ogedai Khan hadn't died and the Mongol Hordes been able to pursue their campaign against Europe? In 1241 Mongols defeated united kinghood of some Polish and German lands (Polish-German unity, isn’t it funny?) leading by Polish prince Henryk II Pobozny in the battle of Legnica (Poland) and killed the prince. After that battle they devastated some territories of Hungary, Moravia, Bulgaria and Croatia and they prepared to attack on Western part of Europe.
 
I'm not sure. Deal a nasty blow to Germany? Sure. Overrun up to the Atlantic? Doubtful.

That's a fair amount of stuff to occupy them, after all.

As I have postulated in my "Gers on the Danube" exploration of events in the space of Ten years they would be able to overrun Eastern Europe, Devestate Northern Italy, and force several German States into a Vassal or Tributary Status easily. Their reputation preceeded them.
 
As I have postulated in my "Gers on the Danube" exploration of events in the space of Ten years they would be able to overrun Eastern Europe, Devestate Northern Italy, and force several German States into a Vassal or Tributary Status easily. Their reputation preceeded them.

That sounds about right. I'm just saying that they're not going to overrun all of Europe - but they can certainly do a number on the HRE.

Italy is hard to weigh (depends on specifics - that could be either very ugly or merely short term).

The main problem is going to be maintaining that afterward. Russia was right by the lands of the Golden Horde. Germany...isn't.

Still, possibilities. And I wouldn't want to chance it in Hungary and Poland.
 
That sounds about right. I'm just saying that they're not going to overrun all of Europe - but they can certainly do a number on the HRE.

Italy is hard to weigh (depends on specifics - that could be either very ugly or merely short term).

Not in the space of 10 years certainly and only in concert with European allies and vassals. A long shot but if Subutai lived long enough he would be the man to pull it off. Though it is of course very dependent on Less Infighting amongst the Mongols which is unlikely once Ogedi kicks the bucket. Though unlikely to last long to an extent but still the Mongols would leave their mark.

Most likely a short term 'Raid' which would leave the Po Valley in ruins and depending on the situation even Rome. The area was already in heavy conflict bewteen the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperors armies and allies battling each other.
 
Not in the space of 10 years certainly and only in concert with European allies and vassals. A long shot but if Subutai lived long enough he would be the man to pull it off. Though it is of course very dependent on Less Infighting amongst the Mongols which is unlikely once Ogedi kicks the bucket. Though unlikely to last long to an extent but still the Mongols would leave their mark.

Most likely a short term 'Raid' which would leave the Po Valley in ruins and depending on the situation even Rome. The area was already in heavy conflict bewteen the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperors armies and allies battling each other.

Sounds fair to me.
 
there was no army on earth who could have withstood such a impressive force as the Mongols were in battle, even if all of Christiandom united against them there is no way their military tactics could have defeated their modern field of fire and lightning strikes. The most modern and developed civilizations at the time were in Islam and the Mongols completely wrecked and desecrated all forms of live and learning in the Middle East for centuries, if they had made Europe their main targets how would the world been affected with a more pessimistic, xenophobic and cynical view in the field of science, philosophy, culture and governance?
 
there was no army on earth who could have withstood such a impressive force as the Mongols were in battle, even if all of Christiandom united against them there is no way their military tactics could have defeated their modern field of fire and lightning strikes. The most modern and developed civilizations at the time were in Islam and the Mongols completely wrecked and desecrated all forms of live and learning in the Middle East for centuries, if they had made Europe their main targets how would the world been affected with a more pessimistic, xenophobic and cynical view in the field of science, philosophy, culture and governance?

Even ants can sting a lion to death.

Its a matter of the generals. The Mongol generals at the time of their arrival in Europe were superb compared to their European counterparts (their soldiers were likewise differently trainned) and the Europeans constantly underestimated the Mongols. It was not without the realm of impossibility for Europeans to defeat the Mongols in skirmishes and battles, it would be a matter if the Europeans could defeat the Mongols in war.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
there was no army on earth who could have withstood such a impressive force as the Mongols were in battle, even if all of Christiandom united against them there is no way their military tactics could have defeated their modern field of fire and lightning strikes. The most modern and developed civilizations at the time were in Islam and the Mongols completely wrecked and desecrated all forms of live and learning in the Middle East for centuries, if they had made Europe their main targets how would the world been affected with a more pessimistic, xenophobic and cynical view in the field of science, philosophy, culture and governance?
Goryeo withstood the Mongols for decades, and was given the position as a sibling country, having the families intermarry.
 
Even if the armies of Christendom are doomed, and I'm not saying they aren't, its going to take some time to do all that needs to be done.

And Ogedei living does not mean Europe becomes a main target, just that Batu can continue pushing west.
 
It was not the first time when the Mongols were defeated in a battle.
And Battle of Ain Jalut is not the best example in the context of this discussion.

The death of the Great Khan Mongke (while on an expedition to China), required Hulagu and other senior Mongols to return home to decide upon his successor. A potential Great Khan, Hulagu took the majority of his army with him, and left a much smaller force, only around one or two tumens (10,000–20,000 men). And this small force was stupid enough to engage in battle.

So it is fair enough to say that the Mamluks of Egypt were saved exactly the way as Europe was saved.

Lucky bastards! :D:)
 
The Mongols might well smash their way through any and all opposition in Europe, but I doubt they'd do more than be propelled by the momentum of their own battles. Any attempt to impose a Western European khanate will be short-lived and fall apart like the Golden Horde due to internal divisions in that khanate.
 
The Mongols might well smash their way through any and all opposition in Europe, but I doubt they'd do more than be propelled by the momentum of their own battles. Any attempt to impose a Western European khanate will be short-lived and fall apart like the Golden Horde due to internal divisions in that khanate.
No doubt about it.

But Western European khanate for 30-100 years is not the worst case scenario for Europe.
The nightmare case scenario is if the Mongols feel that they cannot hold Europe (and actually don't want to) - but they are still invincible so they decide to inflict as much damage as possible on this area. (just out of precaution - to avoid any threat in the future from this side).

And the Mongols are extremely good at that.
They could kill everyone in the area then demonstratively go away, and then in a week a small force unexpectedly fly back and kill the happy survivors who crept out from their holes where they were hiding.
And things like that. You know.

That could change the fate of our civilization a little bit...
 
No doubt about it.

But Western European khanate for 30-100 years is not the worst case scenario for Europe.
The nightmare case scenario is if the Mongols feel that they cannot hold Europe (and actually don't want to) - but they are still invincible so they decide to inflict as much damage as possible on this area. (just out of precaution - to avoid any threat in the future from this side).

And the Mongols are extremely good at that.
They could kill everyone in the area then demonstratively go away, and then in a week a small force unexpectedly fly back and kill the happy survivors who crept out from their holes where they were hiding.
And things like that. You know.

That could change the fate of our civilization a little bit...

Yes, the principality of Moscow will be even more unstoppable than IOTL, with the Tsar having still-greater legitimacy in all of Europe for having vanquished a stronger Khanate (leaving aside anything about how bloodless the OTL vanquishing and an ATL one would be and of course that Moscow rose *due* to the Golden Horde). With a victory of Russia's Tsar, the retreat of the bigger Golden Horde means the western European version will be even more fragile, and this spearheads the growth of a Moscow whose claim to rescuing civilization extends into much more of Europe......

Which ironically might mean Russia winds up a European, larger equivalent to Poland-Lithuania built on a much stronger, absolutist foundation as opposed to overmighty subjects and not an Asian power of any sort. :eek:
 
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