What If: No Mongols

Whoa calm down,

I think that the confusion arose between the words, Westernization and western-centric.

Max Sinister didn't use the word Westernization anywhere in his post. He used the word western centric, because he thought that even though the Chinese and Middle Eastern countries would be better off. In the end, he thinks that the world would still end up western-centric in that the West would become the colonizers and technological centers of the world. Like it was in OTL.

This issue got nothing to do with Max Sinister anymore.

When Emperor Qianlong said something about Max sinister and his own ATL, I said "Point taken" which means that I won't pursue the issue further
with Max Sinister; it's his own ATL anyway.

But then when I stated my personal dislike about the common misconception of Industrialization/Modernization = Westernization, Emperor Qianlong keep nitpicking at me by saying I'm the only one who implies that. :mad:

I simply do not like the way Emperor Qianlong nitpicking of me when I simply stating my own personal dislike. He doesn't have to accept my personal dislike he doesn't have the right to nitpick me personally because of it.

Oh and by the way, I don't agree with Emperor Qianlong's opinion that thing in Central Asia will not be so much different in OTL.

If Genghis Khan can unite the Mongol and the surrounding tribes in OTL, why does it have to be impossible to have leaders of other tribes creating their own states; influenced by either the Song, Russia or their other neighbors ?

They don't have to be as successful as Genghis.
 
Are you personally attacking me ?

When I state my opinion about another person that say something about becoming western-centric in the end, you said that it's about his own ATL so I should leave him alone.

But why when I said about my personal dislike about the common misconception about industrialization/modernization = westernization, you said that I'm the only one that implies that !? :mad:

I said it is a common misconception, I'm not implying anything :mad:

It is a fact that many people out there will still be unconsciously more or less connect industrialization/modernization to westernization.

That's why it's called a common misconception.

I don't take it kindly to your targeting me simply because of stating my personal dislike :mad:

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to personally attack you, but it seems you're clearly overreacting there because I wasn't even remotely offensive there.

This issue got nothing to do with Max Sinister anymore.

When Emperor Qianlong said something about Max sinister and his own ATL, I said "Point taken" which means that I won't pursue the issue further
with Max Sinister; it's his own ATL anyway.

But then when I stated my personal dislike about the common misconception of Industrialization/Modernization = Westernization, Emperor Qianlong keep nitpicking at me by saying I'm the only one who implies that. :mad:

I simply do not like the way Emperor Qianlong nitpicking of me when I simply stating my own personal dislike. He doesn't have to accept my personal dislike he doesn't have the right to nitpick me personally because of it.

Please, calm down. You've definitely been overinterpreting my posts.

Oh and by the way, I don't agree with Emperor Qianlong's opinion that thing in Central Asia will not be so much different in OTL.

If Genghis Khan can unite the Mongol and the surrounding tribes in OTL, why does it have to be impossible to have leaders of other tribes creating their own states; influenced by either the Song, Russia or their other neighbors ?

They don't have to be as successful as Genghis.

Persia was a cultural heavyweight in Central Asia, and large areas of which were predominantly Persian-speaking on the eve of the Mongol Invasions which were in OTL depopulated by the Mongols.
 
Indeed, if a certain Mamluk Persian Dynasty can last with some competant rulers they could extend their cultural influence to the edge of the Song. I wonder what position this puts the Delhi Sultante in though.
 
Yeah, that's the old topic... why didn't China have one? Sure the Mongols destroyed a lot (understatement!), but couldn't it have happened later?

Was it all about the fact that Britain needed steam-driven pumps to get rid of the water in the coal mines, while China doesn't have that problem?

My opinion is that given the very phenomena associated with the proto-Industrial Revolution there IOTL also co-incided with a conquest by a brutal group of Central Asian nomads there was a bit of skepticism among the literati as to whether or not that would actually work and also a tendency to fear Central Asian nomads rather more.

Becoming "Industrialized/Modernized" should be the term instead of "western-centric".

I don't see any reason for them to become "western-centric".

They have their own culture and industrialization/modernization is not the same as Westernization.

Since the Mongol will still be there, although much less stronger than in OTL, how about the possibility of other nomads establishing new states in Central Asia ?

In a case where the Song are the defining group of Industrial society instead of the 18th Century Britons histories in the West could well end up trying to justify why their societies failed to make this transition in Roman times and the idea that a divided and backwards set of states could ever make the transition be dismissed. There might also be a tendency ITTL to favor autocratic societies as a means to spur on the transition given that the Song will be starting out as rather more autocratic than 18th Century Britain was.

It wouldn't resemble the Western take on it, and certainly if the Chinese are industrializing that raises the question of whether or not expanding their markets would lead them to expand to the American continent or if they'd seek to expand south and into Indonesia on a larger scale. Indonesia might well become part of the Chinese sphere of influence here.

In a somewhat darker kind of irony if the Chinese are growing in population akin to Western industrialization and still have the demand for tiger parts as part of Chinese medicine tigers may well be extinct by the 20th Century ITTL.
 
Sorry, it wasn't my intention to personally attack you, but it seems you're clearly overreacting there because I wasn't even remotely offensive there.



Please, calm down. You've definitely been overinterpreting my posts.



Persia was a cultural heavyweight in Central Asia, and large areas of which were predominantly Persian-speaking on the eve of the Mongol Invasions which were in OTL depopulated by the Mongols.


OK, I agree to not pursue the issue anymore.

I agree that Persia is definitely a major power in central asia.

But shouldn't it be very possible for the other nomads in central asia to entertain the idea of creating their own kingdoms ?

After all in OTL, I'm sure that Genghis didn't simply got the idea of creating his own kingdom out of nowhere; he surely got some influences from the neighboring countries.

Of course, in the long run some of these new kingdoms might be gobbled up by Persia or other kingdoms though...
 
My opinion is that given the very phenomena associated with the proto-Industrial Revolution there IOTL also co-incided with a conquest by a brutal group of Central Asian nomads there was a bit of skepticism among the literati as to whether or not that would actually work and also a tendency to fear Central Asian nomads rather more.



In a case where the Song are the defining group of Industrial society instead of the 18th Century Britons histories in the West could well end up trying to justify why their societies failed to make this transition in Roman times and the idea that a divided and backwards set of states could ever make the transition be dismissed. There might also be a tendency ITTL to favor autocratic societies as a means to spur on the transition given that the Song will be starting out as rather more autocratic than 18th Century Britain was.

I am interested in a surviving song dynasty..
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I'm curious to why people thing the Song would have a industrial revolution, beside the common belief that the Songs was on the edge on a industrial revolution.
 
I was thinking what would internet and computers look like if china invented them.

Then you'd have to find a method how to enter all the characters.

That's obviously not impossible, computers can handle the Chinese language, but I admit it's easier to implement programs using the Latin alphabet than a language like Chinese.
 
Then you'd have to find a method how to enter all the characters.

That's obviously not impossible, computers can handle the Chinese language, but I admit it's easier to implement programs using the Latin alphabet than a language like Chinese.

I think Audio will be less likely to be invented there are very numerous languages in China.
 
Then you'd have to find a method how to enter all the characters.

That's obviously not impossible, computers can handle the Chinese language, but I admit it's easier to implement programs using the Latin alphabet than a language like Chinese.

Well, not necessarily Latin, but any script with a fixed set of characters will do - be it an alphabet (not just Latin, but also for instance Etruscan, Greek, Cyrilic and Runic), but also abjads (Phoenician, Aramaic, Hebrew or Arabic) or even Syllabic scripts (Hiragana/Katakana comes to my mind) would, theoretically speaking, as they all have a relatively small set of fixed characters. Any of those would be more useful for computers than Chinese characters - which one only depends on the TL you live in. :p
 
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