What If No Maryland?

Considering Virginia *Cough Claiborne Cough* interests in the region what would have happened if the Calverts had never set up in Maryland either going south or not getting the charter? Would they have tried to foster it someone else? Would Parliamentarian Virginians got into more Shenanigans? Would we have a state of North Virginia or South Pennsylvania?
 
Two main outcomes.

First is that it merely remains part of Virginia. Much of southern and eastern shore Maryland is still clearly Chesapeake-southern in culture.

Second is that it gets tossed in as part of Penn's grant. Not only was northern Maryland disputed in OTL, but many Quakers and Germans settled northern MD. It may be easier to claim some of MD if settlers are established there or an equitable split is made before they colonize the area.

Incidentally I'd enjoy seeing a much nicer Mason-Dixon Line at the Potomac. :p
 
Two main outcomes.

First is that it merely remains part of Virginia. Much of southern and eastern shore Maryland is still clearly Chesapeake-southern in culture.

Second is that it gets tossed in as part of Penn's grant. Not only was northern Maryland disputed in OTL, but many Quakers and Germans settled northern MD. It may be easier to claim some of MD if settlers are established there or an equitable split is made before they colonize the area.

Incidentally I'd enjoy seeing a much nicer Mason-Dixon Line at the Potomac. :p

Or, honestly, why not just split it in two, and give the south to Virginia, and the other part to Pennsylvania?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
It's a stretch, but the entire Peninsula (i.e

Considering Virginia *Cough Claiborne Cough* interests in the region what would have happened if the Calverts had never set up in Maryland either going south or not getting the charter? Would they have tried to foster it someone else? Would Parliamentarian Virginians got into more Shenanigans? Would we have a state of North Virginia or South Pennsylvania?

It's a stretch, but the entire Peninsula (i.e. Maryland's Eastern Shore and the Virginia counties) could be rolled into Delaware, if the delta is as early as the 1600s. Physical geography tends to infuence political geography.

If Maryland is (essentially) integrated into tidewater Virginia, its possible the Valley or the Blue Ridge will be the western border, and some sort of "Appalachian" territory results that includes the mountain areas down to southwestern Virginia, as well as what (historically) became West Virginia, along with Maryland's far western counties.

So maybe - Delaware, Virginia, and Kanawha, east to west?

Best,
 
Two main outcomes.

First is that it merely remains part of Virginia. Much of southern and eastern shore Maryland is still clearly Chesapeake-southern in culture.

Second is that it gets tossed in as part of Penn's grant. Not only was northern Maryland disputed in OTL, but many Quakers and Germans settled northern MD. It may be easier to claim some of MD if settlers are established there or an equitable split is made before they colonize the area.

Incidentally I'd enjoy seeing a much nicer Mason-Dixon Line at the Potomac. :p

Hmm well then if it was a North vs South Divide they would definitely go by rivers but considering river geography the border may be on Patapsco River on the Western Shore and the Chester river on the Eastern Shore. Especially Claiborne who had his trade post investment on Kent Island well north of the Potomac and was hell determined to bring it into Virginia
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
Perhaps something like this:

wrgjnd.jpg


Everything to the North and East goes to Pennsylvania and everything to the South and West goes to Virginia.

Indeed, it's a very real possibility that the permanent capital of the New United States may be placed in Baltimore, Pennsylvania.:cool:
 
Also note that Pennsylvania isn't a thing until the 1680s, so it may be butterflied away (alternatively Maryland could have gone to some other would-be colonial venture during the period, or the Dutch/Swedish might have established a longer-lasting presence).
 
It's a stretch, but the entire Peninsula (i.e. Maryland's Eastern Shore and the Virginia counties) could be rolled into Delaware, if the delta is as early as the 1600s. Physical geography tends to infuence political geography.

If Maryland is (essentially) integrated into tidewater Virginia, its possible the Valley or the Blue Ridge will be the western border, and some sort of "Appalachian" territory results that includes the mountain areas down to southwestern Virginia, as well as what (historically) became West Virginia, along with Maryland's far western counties.

So maybe - Delaware, Virginia, and Kanawha, east to west?

Best,

As a native Delawarean, I can assure you the idea of sweeping up the eastern shore into my state would be Glorious. But sadly it wouldn't be able to happen: as noted, Pennsylvania was created in 1681 and Delaware in 1702 - well after Maryland's title in 1634.

Perhaps something like this:

Everything to the North and East goes to Pennsylvania and everything to the South and West goes to Virginia.

Indeed, it's a very real possibility that the permanent capital of the New United States may be placed in Baltimore, Pennsylvania.:cool:

As far as I can remember from my research, this map hits where most of the Pennsylvanian-descendants settled, albeit much of the eastern shore up to where Kent County, DE is Chesapeake/Southern-descended. This seems an equitable enough trade (albeit Baltimore was technically founded by Chesapeake-men and it showed in moments like the Civil War, it obviously became quite a commercial city attracting much northern business and cleaved to the north once Maryland was forced to stay in the Union).
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Sure, but given the delta and the ripples that could follow it

As a native Delawarean, I can assure you the idea of sweeping up the eastern shore into my state would be Glorious. But sadly it wouldn't be able to happen: as noted, Pennsylvania was created in 1681 and Delaware in 1702 - well after Maryland's title in 1634.

Sure, but given the delta and the ripples that could follow it, seems like the state or colonial lines might be re-adjusted right left and sideways.

No colonial status for Maryland presumably could lead to almost anything.

Best,
 
Sure, but given the delta and the ripples that could follow it, seems like the state or colonial lines might be re-adjusted right left and sideways.

No colonial status for Maryland presumably could lead to almost anything.

Best,

A truth, albeit Penn may enjoy dealing with a fellow proprietor (Calvert) then the single most powerful colony in America, royally governed and bolstered by Maryland within its supposed bounds to boot. Then, his claims came when he was on good terms with the Stuarts, so who knows.
 
I think a split makes sense. The Pennsylvanians get the area they claimed in OTL, while the Virginians take the rest.

Marycolony.png
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Sure - my thought on the Delmarva is that physical geography

A truth, albeit Penn may enjoy dealing with a fellow proprietor (Calvert) then the single most powerful colony in America, royally governed and bolstered by Maryland within its supposed bounds to boot. Then, his claims came when he was on good terms with the Stuarts, so who knows.

My thought on the Delmarva is that physical geography often drives political geography (not always, but often) for reasons as prosaic as the costs of transportation and communications; circuit court riders' routes, placement of capitals in "center" points, that sort of thing.

And it is hard to ignore the Chesapeake.;)

Carving off the west is more of a challenge, but the Tidewater-Piedmont-Mountains divides were real, and with a greater East Virginia, a mountain-centered greater West Virginia/Shenandoah/Kanawha would seem to make some sense.

Best,
 
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