What if-no Jesus
- Thread starter NomadicSky
- Start date
I don't see why they couldn't have coexisted. I think the main issue was that you had one religion that said you couldn't believe in others. People could worship Isis, Cybele, Bacchus (well, until the Roman government thought it was part of a nefarious conspiracy), and any number of other assorted gods/goddesses in mystery religions and still worship the Roman Pantheon.
Nietzsche
Banned
Quite the opposite. Christianity was quite barbarous to new civilizations. Roman theology was pretty much all-accepting. Cultures would be slowly assimilated, ect.
But Christianity allowed anyone and everyone in (and it was more "hidden" rather than a mystery cult, for fear of persecution)... Mithraism didn't.
Hendryk
Banned
Other empires did all right without a one-size-fits-all religion, and I think Rome could have done without Christianity. It may have, say, turned Stoicism into a state ideology, retaining classical polytheism for its civic rituals, while those seeking spiritual fulfilment could have done so by converting to mystery cults or imported religions. Something like that worked for China.
Just apologetics. Christians practiced ethnocide and chattel slavery, which is evidence enough that Christianity didn't do much to check people's baser instincts when dealing with weaker cultures. Conversely, the behavior of non-Christian civilizations in cross-cultural situations runs the gamut from enlightened to bigoted, so it doesn't seem to be a factor either way.
It ties in with the oft-proferred argument that people somehow need faith in God to keep themselves from engaging in mass mayhem. Non-monotheistic civilizations were no less civic-minded than monotheistic ones.
my point wasn't that it was inevitable or necessary... it was simply an idea that was latched onto by the royalty of the time. An aggressively evangelizing monotheistic religion isn't incredibly difficult to invent... and in OTL, rulers really latched onto Christianity for political reasons (not sure why.. maybe just better control over everyone with only one religion to deal with?). For whatever reasons, if the royalty found Christianity so appealing back then, then I would imagine that someone else will come up with the concept with some other monotheistic religion and make it work for the same reasons... it just won't be Christianity..
A new prophet comes out of the desert every week. A certain small numberr of religions catch on because they emerge in the right place at the right time. If not Jesus, I could see a new religion forming around John the Baptist, Simon bar Giora, Mithra, or a pharisee leader unremembered in OTL. I can't say if any of these would have the enduring popularity of Christianity, but each could find many converts and have a long life.
OR what if, with no Jesus, Buddhism catches on in the west????
OR what if, with no Jesus, Buddhism catches on in the west????
Jaded_Railman
Banned
Because the church offered a full, pre-existing bureaucracy that could greatly aid state formation amongst the 'barbarian' pagan nations. This just so happened to also give kings a lot more power and control than they used to, so they jumped at it.
You made me want to see kung-fu Legionaries now...
A new prophet comes out of the desert every week. A certain small numberr of religions catch on because they emerge in the right place at the right time. If not Jesus, I could see a new religion forming around John the Baptist, Simon bar Giora, Mithra, or a pharisee leader unremembered in OTL. I can't say if any of these would have the enduring popularity of Christianity, but each could find many converts and have a long life.
OR what if, with no Jesus, Buddhism catches on in the west????
Some kind of Uber-Mandeanism?
Leo will be happy...
Mmm.
This is a really cool idea, but it's not immediately clear how to get it, unless you think the rise of the Res Publica was overdetermined.
Keenir
Banned
true, but that was what it took from the Roman Empire...so probably most ATLs (with and without Christianity) will have bureaucracy already in place.
whatever the reason was, Christianity was spread widely by rulers imposing it on their people... they found some advantage to it that made them want to adopt it as the exclusive religion for their people... it obviously had something to do with the fact that Christianity was an aggressively evangelistic monotheistic religion (not completely sure, but it might have been the first)... whatever it was that rulers saw in it, it was a hit. So, without Christianity, it's very likely that some other similarly aggressive monotheistic religion will arrive... it seems to have been an idea whose time had come...
It served as a means to unite the subject under the king, with the kings considering themselves like the anointed ancient israelite kings, mediators between god and the people.
It legitimised royal absolutism. Of course, if christianity doesn't take off in the roman empire it won't be adopted up north, but could some variant of Judaism catch on in
the Kievan Rus' like with the Khazars?
the_lyniezian
Banned
No Christ, then from a Christian viewpoint, we are all dead in our sins, that much is certain. I thank God for this reason, that He loves us and DID send him.
In which case all but a handful of people who have lived on the earth up to this point are alienated from God and still dead in their sins. (I thank God Jesus came when He did!)
And since the timing of Jesus coming was surely no accident (one can only guess why, and for once, 'God only knows' is a justified phrase), the POD may have had to be centuries before Christ.
'Tis all I can say.
the_lyniezian
Banned
A new prophet comes out of the desert every week. A certain small numberr of religions catch on because they emerge in the right place at the right time. If not Jesus, I could see a new religion forming around John the Baptist, Simon bar Giora, Mithra, or a pharisee leader unremembered in OTL. I can't say if any of these would have the enduring popularity of Christianity, but each could find many converts and have a long life.
OR what if, with no Jesus, Buddhism catches on in the west????
In OTL, no other religion has formed round any contemporary messianic figures. It would be safe to assume, methinks, this does not happen. Plus, assuming Christ really was the Son of God, then it is no surprise that He has had such a following.
If no Jesus in the time He lived, would God need to raise up John the Baptist, since he was supposed to prepare the way for Christ? (Unles he was just another prophet in the long line of prophets...)
I wonder if I dare ask such questions. However, if people speak from a critical historical viewpoint, surely it is worth at least considering how things stand from a Christian viewpoint?
Manichaeism comes to mind, and several of the mystery cults had somewhat messianic themes.
I would say it is better to approach things from a relatively secular historical viewpoint; otherwise we'll end up discussing theology and run the risk of the thread degenerating into an arguement between Christians and non-Christians.
On topic, I doubt Judaism is going to spread much beyond the Jews; as others have mentioned the conversion of the Khazars was very much a result of the existence of Christianity and Islam. Judaism never showed a great deal of missionary zeal, and things like the dietary requirements, circumcision, and ethno-religious aspect of Jewish identity make the religion less suited to proselytism. Without the rise of other Abrahamic faiths the Jews will probably remain a relatively obscure minority, and possibly end up being gradually assimilated.
NomadicSky
Banned
You heathen you should be thanking Odin for putting out his own eye to give humanity the gift of language.
Óðinn would never send his son in his place to die either he'd die himself before he did that.
This Yahweh that you worship must have bipolar disorder.
In the first of the bible he has the attributes of a strong and powerful wargod who demands respect and gets it no matter how many people die for not following him.
Then he chills out sends part of himself to earth and lets that mangod die for all of humanity. When in Christian mythology there is but one god?This god creates everything even sin and evil? Why not just skip that part?
There's more than one god that's why.