What-if New Spain (& Cuba-Florida) joined British side during the War of 1812?

raharris1973

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Around 1812 New Spain was in a good place. There was a strong Viceroy, exerting de facto independence, the Cadiz Constitution promised the New Spain subjects equal representation with metropolitan Spain, it had a free trading relationship, and it was building a navy to defend against potential French attack.

Despite New Spain/Mexico’s practical autonomy and self-rule, it was loyal to Spain, at least to the Spanish juntas that were not puppetized by France.

New Spain also knew that the USA had claims to land in New Spain and to Florida. American filibusters had seized and created the “Republic of West Florida” in 1810 and entered the Union,.

[I am not sure if Florida was a part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain at this time, but if Cuba was a part of New Spain, Florida certainly was. In any case the Viceroy of New Spain could always cooperate closely with the Captaincy-General of Cuba in common policies as both supported the deposed Spanish King Ferdinand and opposed the French puppet Joseph Bonaparte.]

So what if the Viceroy of New Spain decided that the outbreak of the Anglo-American War of 1812, created the opportunity to confront US expansionism, redress territorial losses to Napeoleon and to the Americans in Louisiana and West Florida.

Impact of the war depends a lot on timing of the entry of Spain into the war. They could join on the later side for instance, and New Orleans would be the most natural campaign for them to join, with Mexican and Cuban troops joining the British.

Of course and earlier entry could alter campaign plans more, with joint campaigns operating out of Florida or Texas against Louisiana, invasion of Georgia and or South Carolina, and incitement of southeastern Indians. If not that, maybe some Spanish Cuban troops could participate in the British Chesapeake Campaign.

Why would New Spain/Spanish imperial authorities even think of doing this? Basically by taking a more proactive and strategic view. It is in their interest to see the US contained, the War of 1812 is the only time to do this with the a powerful, the most powerful ally, on their side. It would be good to establish the principle that the security of British North America and New Spain are interdependent, possibly securing British aid for New Spain should it be needed later.

Also, thinking globally and acting locally, it could be seen as useful or even vital for Spanish interests to draw off American troops. It goes like this. Britain and (legitimate) Spain are allied in Europe. Britain is the vital actor in liberating metropolitan Spain. America is attacking Spain’s ally, Britain, in North America. It is not in Spain or New Spain’s interest for the British to either lose in Canada or divert too many troops and ships there. A British loss removes a check on American expansionism to the south as well as north, and a big long commitment by Britain in North America distracts British resources from the liberation of Spain.
 
They had their hands full internally and they didn't have an army per say.The Viceroyalties relied on the Spanish army to defend themselves.They wouldn't have been of much help
 
The positives have already been listed: getting Louisiana/west florida back, and checking US expansionism.

The negatives: Spain doesn't have resources to think globally. It is basically a war zone with slim pretenses of being a global empire. New Spain has its own internal problems, and historically haven't done much to develop their northern sphere, still have a huge territory still in need of development, so they don't have much incentive to get expansionist/revanchist. This is a good time for both to think ahead, but neither have the ability to project power. Britain, meanwhile has no interest in strengthening Spain/New Spain. They mostly just want the US to behave and return to being nice trade partners. It is obvious early on that the US has no ability to project power and isn't a threat to Canada, so the war for them was all about just getting the US to agree to peace. Getting Spain involved means a punitive peace, which is counter productive from an anglo view. Plus, Britain is going to have to foot the bill. IF Britain thought it was advantageous to get Spain involved, they would have pushed to get them involved.

it's a good thought, and a good wank (or stick it to the US, depending on POV), but there's a lot of inertia that needs to be overcome to bring it to fruition.
 

raharris1973

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Other lesser scenarios that could be inspired by these drivers. WI Spanish or New Spanish (Viceroy Venegas) try to mediate the Anglo-US dispute prior to US DoW to keep the focus on Napoleon. Or they try to mediate if the war once it starts, to allow the focus to return to Napoleon. Perhaps successfully in either case. Or, Spain could, in a manner more hostile to the Americans, propose mediation to the Americans on pain of becoming a cobelligerent with Britain in any war on America.
 

raharris1973

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I wonder how accepting Britain or America would have been to third power mediation before the war of 1812 broke out, or after.

Countries with the diplomatic weight and incentive to try to ensure a peaceful resolution of Anglo-American disputes include Bourbon Spain and Romanov Russia.
 
I'm not sure you can say a good place. Cuba was panicking over possible slave revolts inspired by Haiti. The Hidalgo Revolt kicked off in 1810.
 

raharris1973

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I'm not sure you can say a good place. Cuba was panicking over possible slave revolts inspired by Haiti. The Hidalgo Revolt kicked off in 1810.

I was inspired to launch this thread based on a rather bullish assessment of Mexico/New Spain from Tocomocho years ago.

Anyway, Mexico has already suffered a pair of "coups" in 1808 and 1810. The current viceroy is a "semiliberal", the Count of Calderón; the pro-independence guerrillas have been greatly diminished since 1811; the Mexican Inquisition has been abolished and free trade has been established; Spain is at the height of the conflict with the French and the new Constitution of Cádiz has recognized them as citizens wth the same rights as the Peninsulars; Mexico has began to build a navy of its own in 1809 in all but its name with the support of the Brits, to have the French out of the Western Hemisphere. What does an American annexation have to offer? Nothing.

Thanks to the "special" situation in Spain, Mexico is almost an independent nation, and Ferdinand VII is still the "desired" prisoner of the French and not the bigot monarch that screws everything he touchs of a pair of years in the future.

But one could argue this downplays the uprisings too much.

Most of them would have been pro-American, due to fear of British hegemony.

In a world where the only two major powers were Britain and America, that would probably be the case, but any fears of British hegemony on the part of Bourbon Spain and Romanov Russia in the 1810-1815 era were more than compensated for by their greater fear of *French* Imperial hegemony.
 
Recall, though, that the Austrians wanted the French to keep Antwerp as a threat to Britain. There was persistent bad feeling that Britain was using the Napoleonic Wars to seize overseas commerce. Propping up America would combat that.
 

raharris1973

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Recall, though, that the Austrians wanted the French to keep Antwerp as a threat to Britain. There was persistent bad feeling that Britain was using the Napoleonic Wars to seize overseas commerce. Propping up America would combat that.

Right, well then I suppose Spain and Russia would be sympathetic to American complaints, so if mediating would direct a majority of their pleas for concessions for the cause of peace to Britain rather than America.

While at the same time, their goal would be preserving Anglo-American peace or a speedy end to the war.

I doubt either Spain or Russia or any other power in fear of Napoleon was happy to see the Anglo-American War break out.
 
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Recall, though, that the Austrians wanted the French to keep Antwerp as a threat to Britain. There was persistent bad feeling that Britain was using the Napoleonic Wars to seize overseas commerce. Propping up America would combat that.

The mariage of arduchess Leopoldina with the crownprince of Portugal and Brazil,is a proof that Austria had interest in gaining comercial interests in the Americas.
 
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raharris1973

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A question about the Spanish empire in this period. I think Florida and Cuba were under the administration of the Captaincy General of Cuba at the time, but did that administrain report to New Spain ir diectly to Old Spain?

i ask because i think central america was mainly under the captaincy general of Guatemala, but Guatemala was subordinate to Mexico City.
 
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