What if Mussolini joined the allies in Wolrd War 2?

Usagi

Gone Fishin'
What if Fascist Italy fought with the Allies against Germany in World War II instead of fighting with the axis? How would this change Italy and Europe?
 

yeetboy

Banned
German knocks out Italy early, but the Germans are defeated earlier with no presence on Africa.
 

SsgtC

Banned
German knocks out Italy early, but the Germans are defeated earlier with no presence on Africa.
Not sure I follow. Without Italy as an ally, Hitler doesn't go into North Africa. Therefore, he doesn't lose the manpower or the equipment sent there. Germany is unlikely to go into Greece either. As without Italy, there's no need for Hitler to bail Mussolini out. They do lose the Italian troops sent to Russia, but those are more than made up for with German forces not wasted in Africa or Greece.

Edit: if anything, it takes longer to defeat Hitler. Stalingrad likely falls ITTL along with Leningrad and maybe even Moscow.
 

yeetboy

Banned
The Allies having full control of Africa and the Mediterranean saves the Allies much more equipment and manpower than it would save the Germans, a resisting Italy would be a much easier invasion target for the Allies, much earlier.
 
German knocks out Italy early, but the Germans are defeated earlier with no presence on Africa.

Not that early, fighting in the mountains is not quick. If Italy joins the Allies , Germany is likely fighting the French and British in the Italian Alps along with the Italian Army.
 
When faced with this one on the game board the German player usually knocks down the French on schedule. The Italian player is screwed & is out of the game fairly quickly, sitting on the bench with his 'Free Italy' army of one game piece in Lybia.
 
Not sure I follow. Without Italy as an ally, Hitler doesn't go into North Africa. Therefore, he doesn't lose the manpower or the equipment sent there. Germany is unlikely to go into Greece either. As without Italy, there's no need for Hitler to bail Mussolini out. They do lose the Italian troops sent to Russia, but those are more than made up for with German forces not wasted in Africa or Greece.

Edit: if anything, it takes longer to defeat Hitler. Stalingrad likely falls ITTL along with Leningrad and maybe even Moscow.

Not sure about the last.

I think you are right to note the upsides as well as the downsides but among the downsides Germany still needs resources like copper and oil from the Balkans and the same lack of foreign exchange as per OTL. So I would expect German entry into the region to secure this and the Turkish trade route.

The issue with Italy is two fold. One the Italian Army was designed for a defensive war in the Alps...even if driven from the Alps there are plenty of river lines to establish subsequent defensive positions. Germany though must attack the Alpine redoubt else bombers can reach the German industrial heartlands more easily. In a real world situation the number of troops Germany can bring to bear on the Italians is limited by the road and rail network in the region so that leaves a lot of troops to deploy elsewhere and obviously the drives towards the invasion of the Soviet Union remain as well.
 
If Italy sticks with the Allies, Benny never lets Hitler into Austria. Doubtful Hitler gambles at that point and if he does it's likely messier than Poland was and the Little Entente comes in to assist.
 
Not sure about the last.

I think you are right to note the upsides as well as the downsides but among the downsides Germany still needs resources like copper and oil from the Balkans and the same lack of foreign exchange as per OTL. So I would expect German entry into the region to secure this and the Turkish trade route.

The issue with Italy is two fold. One the Italian Army was designed for a defensive war in the Alps...even if driven from the Alps there are plenty of river lines to establish subsequent defensive positions. Germany though must attack the Alpine redoubt else bombers can reach the German industrial heartlands more easily. In a real world situation the number of troops Germany can bring to bear on the Italians is limited by the road and rail network in the region so that leaves a lot of troops to deploy elsewhere and obviously the drives towards the invasion of the Soviet Union remain as well.

Yeah, real life isn't a board game.
 
Third Reich. It was handy for testing alternative alliances & strategies. Main defect was bone headed players who did not grasp the core economic/stratigic structure of it. They wanted to push corps of Tiger tanks across Europe.

The others of the era were poorly designed, or too big for practical grand strategy. The SPI Europa game was a example of the 'too large' school.
 

Deleted member 1487

What if Fascist Italy fought with the Allies against Germany in World War II instead of fighting with the axis? How would this change Italy and Europe?
At want point does Italy join the Allies? Do they participate in Spain? Do they try and block German moves pre-war or do they 'switch sides' again in 1939 or 40? So many more details are needed to say what happens, because the entire pre-war set up could potentially even prevent WW2.
 

Deleted member 1487

Italy nixing the Austrian Anschluss the second time around really screws the nazi government.
Question is would they if Britain was willing to sit back and let it happen? France did and if that was the case would Italy fight over it? If not then Mussolini not being on Hitler's side during the Munich Crisis does mean war.
 

Usagi

Gone Fishin'
At want point does Italy join the Allies? Do they participate in Spain? Do they try and block German moves pre-war or do they 'switch sides' again in 1939 or 40? So many more details are needed to say what happens, because the entire pre-war set up could potentially even prevent WW2.
they just never signs/joins the pact of steel.
 

Deleted member 1487

they just never signs/joins the pact of steel.
So everything up until then is the same? When do they declare war on Germany then, 1939? If that is the case then things get interesting if Italy decides to start making moves against Austria, but at that point Italy is REALLY unprepared for war thanks to the expense and losses of the Spanish Civil War.
 
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