What if Muscovy didn't become Russia?

How might that chunk of the world evolved? The Kievan Rus broke up in the wake of the Mongol invasion, and several city-states emerged in its wake, paying tribute to the Golden Horde; they became a bunch of larger states. This was a power vacuum that could potentially have gone in multiple directions (including a Polish or German invasion, or even a Khazar cultural/national resurgence). In OTL, Moscow emerged as the foremost city of some principality or other, and so the Grand Duke (or whatever his title was; "Tsar" came later) moved his capital to Moscow from some other city, and it became the Principality of Muscovy and later the Duchy (?) of Muscovy, still paying tribute to the Horde. It expanded from there on, eventually taking over what became known as Russia (probably following the same logic that the Mongols had, except that they went mostly in the opposite direction and were largely north of the Mongols). My guess is that someone or a bunch of someones eventually take over the land, but who? And what does the world look like in their wake?
 
I know a lot of people expect that Novgorod would have become powerful enough to take over Russia. I myself am not sold on it, but it does have the advantage of being somewhat more removed from Tartar attacks. If that doesn't happen, I'd expect some Swedish, Polish, and Ottoman encroachment down the line. The thing is, that won't happen for a few centuries, during which time I expect some other city to do the same thing Moscow did and begin unifying Russia/kicking out the Tartars.

That, or the Golden Horde fractures into smaller states and Russia remains divided and ripe for occasional invasion. Given its massive size, there's no particularly compelling reason for the entire territory to unify as it did OTL.
 
If Moscow doesn't become dominant, then it's possible for another city in northern Russia to take its place as the dominant power. Tver was another candidate besides Novgorod.

Another possibility is that Lithuania becomes the dominant power. At one point it ruled Belarus, much of Ukraine, and Smolensk. So it possibly continues to expand east. If Lithuania is already tied to Poland in the Commonwealth, then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth rules the east slavs.

It is also possible that one of the Tatar successor states to the Golden Horde becomes dominant like the Khanate of Kazan. Given that the Tatars were Muslim, this would greatly change history.

Finally, no one power becomes dominant. So instead of one great power, eastern european history becomes one of several powers competing against one another (besides a northern Russia state, Lithuania, and the Tatars, eventually Sweden may be added to the mix).

Nothing is pre-ordained here, so it could develop in several different ways.
 
If Moscow doesn't become dominant, then it's possible for another city in northern Russia to take its place as the dominant power. Tver was another candidate besides Novgorod.

Another possibility is that Lithuania becomes the dominant power. At one point it ruled Belarus, much of Ukraine, and Smolensk. So it possibly continues to expand east. If Lithuania is already tied to Poland in the Commonwealth, then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth rules the east slavs.

It is also possible that one of the Tatar successor states to the Golden Horde becomes dominant like the Khanate of Kazan. Given that the Tatars were Muslim, this would greatly change history.

Finally, no one power becomes dominant. So instead of one great power, eastern european history becomes one of several powers competing against one another (besides a northern Russia state, Lithuania, and the Tatars, eventually Sweden may be added to the mix).

Nothing is pre-ordained here, so it could develop in several different ways.

This is EXACTLY what makes it good alternate history fodder, and which is why I suggested it. A Muslim (or even Jewish) Russia would certainly affect world history...the Caliphate of the Green Horde, anyone?
 
Remember folks, sparsely populated territory with poor weapons + eager expansionist state with good weapons = wank, and that's what Russia and the Scramble for Africa were in OTL.
 
Remember folks, sparsely populated territory with poor weapons + eager expansionist state with good weapons = wank, and that's what Russia and the Scramble for Africa were in OTL.


I think having a warring states period in Russia after Mstislav the great dies. If this happens then the need for good weapons plus great leaders, numbers and administration might speed up the modernization of Russia and eventually push it on top


Probably be asb though
 
What if Muscovy still became a powerful state, but not powerful enough to take over all of Russia? Maybe we'd have several Russian principalities in the north, like Muscovy, Novgorod, and a few others, plus some Muslim kingdoms (maybe a Sultanate of Astrakhan dominant in the Volga region?) and more Swedish and/or Polish expansion around the Baltic.

Another thing I wonder, is there any possibility that Kiev could become the dominant Russian state again after the Mongol invasion? Is there any way they could recover from that?

Also, what happens to Siberia?

And, what happens to Eastern Orthodox Christianity without a powerful Russia? Most of the possibilities that have been suggested so far have Muslims or Western Christians taking the upper hand: so what if there are no significant Orthodox states around after 1453?
 

Zioneer

Banned
This is EXACTLY what makes it good alternate history fodder, and which is why I suggested it. A Muslim (or even Jewish) Russia would certainly affect world history...the Caliphate of the Green Horde, anyone?

It's funny that you mention that, because I'm currently working on a reboot of my Khazar TL, in which of course the Khazars survive. They're in the Ukraine, mostly, but also command a large chunk of the original Kievan Rus as their vassal.

The original isn't very good, but it *is* a Jewish Russia, or at least a Jewish Ukraine.
 
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