What if Mesoamericans developed Gunpowder?

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Fair enough. I'll bow to your greater knowledge... but so should a lot of others . If it is a myth (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) it's a well established myth.

There are a lot of well established myths about Native-Americans, especially in regards to Mesoamerica. This is just one of them, but I could make examples of many others.

I've just had a thought which runs counter to my earlier views on this. That is, from my understanding most of the conflict in the New World (New World vs New World) was ritualistic with the soul aim of capturing the enemy for sacrifice.

And this would be another. For one, not even Mesoamericans waged wars for the primary aim of capturing sacrificial victims, let alone the New World entirely. This started out as some weird claim to explain why the Aztecs lost and because people can't differentiate between Mesoamericans (who in the words of one conquistador could be as different from each other as the Spanish from the Turks) it's gotten to be applied to all of them. War was pretty much waged for the same reasons everyone else did it, pragmatism, opportunism, and the occasional conflict over honor. Capturing enemy warriors to sacrifice was considered a bonus really, and even then it wasn't the only fate for captives even among the Aztecs who were by far the most prolific people at that sort of thing. Generally captive enemy warriors were kept as slaves, among the Maya preferably only those of high rank were sacrificed as it was an honorable way to go compared to being enslaved, though even then it would still be common to use noble prisoners as hostages or puppets like in the old world.

As for the use of gunpowder, grenades and signal bombs are very likely uses as far as warfare goes. Don't need metal to make a grenade, they could easily just use clay jars or even bags filled with gunpowder and rock shards. And as previously mentioned, using it as blasting powder for construction would be feasible as well.

 

[wcv215]

If the Aztecs had firearms ahead of time, they would've conquered everyone around them easily, meaning that Cortez would end up having little to no native allies.

Erm...

Pardon my ignorance about mesoAmerica, but didn't the Aztecs rule the region anyway? How does them having one extra tool suddenly make the natives Cortez allied with/took advantage of not be there?

Edit: also, would they have actually developed weapons with gunpowder capable of penetrating Spanish armor? It took a long time for people who fought it regularly to come up with an effective anti-armor weapon. How are people who have never seen such armor going to come up with a defense so quickly.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

Fair enough. I'll bow to your greater knowledge... but so should a lot of others . If it is a myth (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) it's a well established myth. For example, I have heard (second hand, so as reliable as you want to make it) that one of the north American cultures had the Europeans play the 'divinity' angle on them, which to the surprise of the Europeans didn't work and they got their arses kicked. Now that wasn't read anywhere with any ability to reference, so it quite easily could have been a crock, but it IS something I heard... which means that a lot of people believe the myth.

I don't think it changes too much though. A mesoAmerica with decent technology gunpowder would have a tremendous advantage. The point you made earlier about the Europeans losing the first engagement and Cortez not being deterred, well, wouldn't it also be quite reasonable to assume that he wasn't deterred because he had the advantage of ships that couldn't be touched, so could land where he wanted - "hit 'em where they aint" so to speak - whereas something like THIS would certainly mean that the Europeans could be hit.

I'm not saying that the New Worlders would have a series of forts that could fight of Overlord. I'm saying that it would change things pretty dramatically.

The advantange of ships would probably only apply to the coastline. Very soon, if more and more people from the boats enter deeper into the main to be killed by Mesoamerican gunpowder, the amount of men will run out, leaving the boats mostly unprotected and remaining crew members would be demoralized, leaving the Aztecs or Mayans to claim the ships as their own.

It will also take a ton of time, money and resources for reinforcements to arrive.

 

[othyrsyde]

And this would be another. For one, not even Mesoamericans waged wars for the primary aim of capturing sacrificial victims, let alone the New World entirely. This started out as some weird claim to explain why the Aztecs lost and because people can't differentiate between Mesoamericans (who in the words of one conquistador could be as different from each other as the Spanish from the Turks) it's gotten to be applied to all of them. War was pretty much waged for the same reasons everyone else did it, pragmatism, opportunism, and the occasional conflict over honor. Capturing enemy warriors to sacrifice was considered a bonus really, and even then it wasn't the only fate for captives even among the Aztecs who were by far the most prolific people at that sort of thing. Generally captive enemy warriors were kept as slaves, among the Maya preferably only those of high rank were sacrificed as it was an honorable way to go compared to being enslaved, though even then it would still be common to use noble prisoners as hostages or puppets like in the old world.

Exactly . I rarely commit on this subject because of the flame wars I've seen on here if one questions this bullshit of sacrificing 10,000 people a day. It's the same as Pizarro's 'great cavalry charge' of a hundred Spaniards taking down an army of a 100,000 Incas or some crap.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

The advantange of ships would probably only apply to the coastline. Very soon, if more and more people from the boats enter deeper into the main to be killed by Mesoamerican gunpowder, the amount of men will run out, leaving the boats mostly unprotected and remaining crew members would be demoralized, leaving the Aztecs or Mayans to claim the ships as their own.

It will also take a ton of time, money and resources for reinforcements to arrive.

True to an extent, but political changes revolving around PODs in the Precolumbian Americans would be better at achieving that than giving gunpowder to states that only popped into existence in the 1300's, although the butterfly effect would slightly aid that goal I suppose.

@othyrsyde: These days though it seems that the only people who make claims along those lines on this site are just ignorant on the subject and accepting of the truth when they hear it. The only people who bothered arguing seem to mostly be banned now.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

True to an extent, but political changes revolving around PODs in the Precolumbian Americans would be better at achieving that than giving gunpowder to states that only popped into existence in the 1300's, although the butterfly effect would slightly aid that goal I suppose.

I imagine the Mayans developing gunpowder around 1100 and perfecting it around 1300.

 

[RGB]

The advantange of ships would probably only apply to the coastline. Very soon, if more and more people from the boats enter deeper into the main to be killed by Mesoamerican gunpowder, the amount of men will run out, leaving the boats mostly unprotected and remaining crew members would be demoralized, leaving the Aztecs or Mayans to claim the ships as their own.

It will also take a ton of time, money and resources for reinforcements to arrive.

Spanish sailors and soldiers' ability to build decent-sized boats almost anywhere was pretty important in the final siege of Teonochtitlan and also in De Soto's retreat from interior USA.

So it's a handy skill to have not only on the ocean.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

Spanish sailors and soldiers' ability to build decent-sized boats almost anywhere was pretty important in the final siege of Teonochtitlan and also in De Soto's retreat from interior USA.

So it's a handy skill to have not only on the ocean.

But what if after initially failing to conquer Mesoamerica, Spain did not have the funds to do it again, since the Catholic Church payed a petty penny the first time?

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

I imagine the Mayans developing gunpowder around 1100 and perfecting it around 1300.

Hmm, that would bring us to the time of Chichen Itza, which seems plausible though there were also other states as well who couldn't be ruled out since there's no evidence to suggest that the Itzas had any more particularly advanced scientific knowledge than other Maya. Still though, if we assume for now that gunpowder was developed in the time of Chichen Itza's hegemony by the Itzas, that gives a possibility for great political change in the Yucatan. I say possibility because Chichen was brought down by political in-fighting and turmoil and not foreign invasion, at least by non-Maya. But then the butterfly effect might change the circumstances as well, Hunac Ceel might not even be born, etcetera etcetera. So it wouldn't be implausible to say the invention and development of gunpowder by some Itzas or their allies allows the hegemonic rule of Chichen to last longer, although it likely decentralizes eventually to some degree. Therefore you get a more unified political entity in the Yucatan by the time the Spanish arrive rather than 16 warring petty states divided into at least 3 sides.

 

[RGB]

But what if after initially failing to conquer Mesoamerica, Spain did not have the funds to do it again, since the Catholic Church payed a petty penny the first time?

Do you have the costs of these expeditions handy on you? I'd be very interested in seeing them.

 

[othyrsyde]

But what if after initially failing to conquer Mesoamerica, Spain did not have the funds to do it again, since the Catholic Church payed a petty penny the first time?

A variety of scenarios could arise. The Mexica could have more time to adapt to the changing realities of warfare and make future efforts more difficult. Colonization could take on a more soft power role of spreading the Catholicism through missionaries, like the Kongo Kingdom in Africa. It might just delay the conquest a bit longer, especially in regards to the instability brought by the diseases and invasion in the first place. It could lead to the total disintegration of the region into numerous states like the Maya were in, or see the rise of a new leading imperial faction. Another route could be they end up in a similar boat as the Southeastern tribes, where they were reduced to a more hunter gather life style after the disease collapsed the last of the Mississipian cities and towns.

It all depends on when and how the Spanish were fought off and the route one wants to take such a TL.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

Do you have the costs of these expeditions handy on you? I'd be very interested in seeing them.

It would be the Renaissance-equivalent of us paying for an expedition to Mars today. If anyone payed that much back then two times in a row, they'd be all but broke.

 

[RGB]

Colonization could take on a more soft power role of spreading the Catholicism through missionaries, like the Kongo Kingdom in Africa.

Maybe. It's a possibility. I think it's actually somewhat more likely than having even more competing states just because gunpowder is around. I can see this as yet another prestige skill/good that the strongest faction would be able to corner early.

Another route could be they end up in a similar boat as the Southeastern tribes, where they were reduced to a more hunter gather life style after the disease collapsed the last of the Mississipian cities and towns.

I think it needed horses to really get into full swing. Are there still Spanish expeditions up the Mississippi etc. (so they can leave horses behind)?

It would be the Renaissance-equivalent of us paying for an expedition to Mars today. If anyone payed that much back then two times in a row, they'd be all but broke.

Well, it so happens that the Spanish Imperial projects (in North Africa, the Mediterranean naval wars, and the Low Countries) often cost way way way way way more in manpower and equipment, and Span mounted them repeatedly (and often fruitlessly). That's why I wondered about monetary cost, not sure if I'm missing something. I mean, Narvaez managed to find money for two expeditions immediately after Cortez's. There must have been some cash lying around.

 

[Martinus Paduei]

This would be the sight of mayans going into battle:

Marc Pasquin, FOR THE WIN!

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Another route could be they end up in a similar boat as the Southeastern tribes, where they were reduced to a more hunter gather life style after the disease collapsed the last of the Mississipian cities and towns.

I wouldn't be so sure. They were much more developed and populous than the Mississippians and the Maya political system in particular was much stronger. Chichen Itza was still receiving tribute into the 1700's despite having fallen in the 1200's.

 

[RGB]

Chichen Itza was still receiving tribute into the 1700's despite having fallen in the 1200's.

Wow. That sounds really remarkable (I mean, really really really remarkable! 500 years worth of memory is hella impressive and kicks the seven shades out of Roman legacy). And the authorities of New Spain went along with it too?

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

The Spainish first appeared in Aztec/Mayan territory in 1511. They did not enter Mississippi until around 1541.

Let's assume they lost during their initial encounter with the Mayans.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Wow. That sounds really remarkable (I mean, really really really remarkable! 500 years worth of memory is hella impressive and kicks the seven shades out of Roman legacy). And the authorities of New Spain went along with it too?

Not really, it was kept pretty secret from the authorities. They were doing this kind of thing even at a time when anyone caught would get arrested, tortured, and possibly burned alive. Even when the Inquistition stopped, I don't think they'd have looked upon this stuff kindly, the Itza basically kept up a secret government for a few centuries, although it was more symbolic and religious than anything else. The Postclassic Yucatecs had a form of government based on calendrics of a religious nature, and so cities that seated katuns and cycles as declared by katun lords and speakers still received tribute secretly.

The Spainish first appeared in Aztec/Mayan territory in 1511. They did not enter Mississippi until around 1541.

Let's assume they lost during their initial encounter with the Mayans.

They lost their initial encounter with the Maya IOTL in a battle near Champoton that they called something like "the coast of the bad fight". Half of them died in battle, the rest were wounded and many died off on the voyage home including the leader, Francisco Hernandez de Cordoba.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

They lost their initial encounter with the Maya IOTL in a battle near Champoton that they called something like "the coast of the bad fight". Half of them died in battle, the rest were wounded and many died off on the voyage home including the leader, Francisco Hernandez de Cordoba.

Ok then, maybe not just in their initial encounter, but the entire conquest of the region proved a failure more generally speaking.

 

[Ravenflight]

]Well, it so happens that the Spanish Imperial projects (in North Africa, the Mediterranean naval wars, and the Low Countries) often cost way way way way way more in manpower and equipment, and Span mounted them repeatedly (and often fruitlessly). That's why I wondered about monetary cost, not sure if I'm missing something. I mean, Narvaez managed to find money for two expeditions immediately after Cortez's. There must have been some cash lying around.

Unless I'm mistaken the various ventures like Flanders and Italy were expensive prospects on their own. Without New World gold Spain quickly becomes bankrupted and there are plenty of people who would be happy to see a War of Spanish Succession in 1600.