I'd think they would require less gunpowder than metal cannonballs(ergo less heat). If they did melt, molten spray. If not they would either cause some localized havoc or shatter (rubber does that sometimes when ridiculous force is applied right? or is that only frozen rubber?) and act as a less-piercing shrapnel. None of the ways would be effective as metal cannonballs, but devastating to Mesopotamian forces nonetheless.
What if Mesoamericans developed Gunpowder?
- Thread starter PhoenicianLegacy
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I'd think they would require less gunpowder than metal cannonballs(ergo less heat). If they did melt, molten spray. If not they would either cause some localized havoc or shatter (rubber does that sometimes when ridiculous force is applied right? or is that only frozen rubber?) and act as a less-piercing shrapnel. None of the ways would be effective as metal cannonballs, but devastating to Mesopotamian forces nonetheless.
Of course it is... because it didn't happen... but it IS possible.
It'd help them in mining though. Mining as in mineral extraction I mean, though I suppose they could undermine walls too.
Dirk_Pitt
Banned
But eating mushrooms make you bigger and Italians corner that market so all the Spanish have to do is buy mushrooms from them and Boom, they can simply crush the Aztec underfoot!
PhoenicianLegacy
Banned
Now I'd like to discuss what kinds of effects this POD would have on the present.
For one thing, maybe only half as many Europeans would end up immigrating to the New World and the present day will be much less homogenized.
For one thing, maybe only half as many Europeans would end up immigrating to the New World and the present day will be much less homogenized.
And that, plus native allies, is why Cortez won - as in, how does it matter whether the Mesoamericans have gunpowder?
AtriumCarceris
Banned
The answers significantly depend on when gunpowder is discovered. You can have it pretty much whenever, so long as there's a tradition of mixing things together somewhere. It's probably the closest to a random discovery that history has that I can think of.
The earlier the better because it'll take time for a use to be realised. If I recall correctly, The Guns of the Tawantinsuyu had hundreds of years go by before gunpowder was used in anything beyond a flash powder priests used in rituals or something. It's been a while since I read it.
The earlier the better because it'll take time for a use to be realised. If I recall correctly, The Guns of the Tawantinsuyu had hundreds of years go by before gunpowder was used in anything beyond a flash powder priests used in rituals or something. It's been a while since I read it.
PhoenicianLegacy
Banned
If the Aztecs had firearms ahead of time, they would've conquered everyone around them easily, meaning that Cortez would end up having little to no native allies.
I imagine that the Spaniards would entered mainland America only once (in Mayan territory, which they first appeared in OTL as well) to get their asses kicked by the locals due to both superior number and that they would merely have firepower, forcing the conquistadors to head back to Spain. Disease or no disease, it would still take a bit of time for a plague to take its toll.
Except that we can't reasonably expect it to be "the Mexica have gunpowder and no one else does."
So yes, there would be native allies - just as the Italian city stats weren't united.
I'm not familiar with the circumstances of the Spanish in Mayan territory, but I'm not entirely convinced here.
The first time the Spanish were in the Yucatan and fought a battle IOTL, the Maya chased them back into the sea and half of them were killed, all the rest save for one being wounded and several of them died of their wounds on the way back including the leader of the expedition. Didn't deter Cortez, although Grijalva seemed a bit wary of landing.
I think there was lots of reasons for the conquest of the Americas to go through so well. Disease played its part, military superiority played its part, allying with the locals played its part, being considered gods played its part. I believe that effective use of gunpowder may have had a HUGE impact on all of those things. Consider:
1) Disease is always going to have an effect, however it will be limited if the numbers of Europeans entering the new world is also limited.
2) Gunpowder would limit the military superiority... indeed depending on how old that technology was it may prove the end of European rule of the continents.
3 and 4) work a lot with the POD, and is impossible to guage. It is probably the biggest variable and therefore up to the author to have the TL change here in a believable way. Part of the 'god' status of the Europeans came down to mere technological wonder. Part of it was appearance and 'how they entered the new world' but that is highly subject to change dependent on how huge the technology difference was. There is a fairly large chance that a lot of the natives will throw their lot in with the Europeans, but only if they get a stronghold and show superiority. Indeed no small part of the alliance between Europeans and New Worlders would be because of the perception of divinity.
Anyway - these are just my opinion.
1) Disease is always going to have an effect, however it will be limited if the numbers of Europeans entering the new world is also limited.
2) Gunpowder would limit the military superiority... indeed depending on how old that technology was it may prove the end of European rule of the continents.
3 and 4) work a lot with the POD, and is impossible to guage. It is probably the biggest variable and therefore up to the author to have the TL change here in a believable way. Part of the 'god' status of the Europeans came down to mere technological wonder. Part of it was appearance and 'how they entered the new world' but that is highly subject to change dependent on how huge the technology difference was. There is a fairly large chance that a lot of the natives will throw their lot in with the Europeans, but only if they get a stronghold and show superiority. Indeed no small part of the alliance between Europeans and New Worlders would be because of the perception of divinity.
Anyway - these are just my opinion.
There wasn't a lot of perception of divinity by the natives regarding Europeans. The story of the Aztecs thinking the Spanish (or at least Cortez) is a myth created by the Spanish, the only one I've heard that has any credence was something involving the Taino or some other Caribbean tribe which ended with the drowning of a few Spaniards.
Early gunpowder weapons really sucked too, and weren't the overriding factor in military victories, especially for the Mexica, Maya, and Inca who could raise pretty sizable armies. It was disease and the Spaniards taking advantage of indigenous divisions that doomed the big empires and city-states.
Not to say gunpowder knowledge wouldn't help. In one of my TL's I'm exploring how these societies absorbed gunpowder, metallurgy, and more domesticated animals and advanced in the short window of grace from European colonization my POD has gave them.
Not to say gunpowder knowledge wouldn't help. In one of my TL's I'm exploring how these societies absorbed gunpowder, metallurgy, and more domesticated animals and advanced in the short window of grace from European colonization my POD has gave them.
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Fair enough. I'll bow to your greater knowledge... but so should a lot of others
. If it is a myth (and I'm not saying it is or isn't) it's a well established myth. For example, I have heard (second hand, so as reliable as you want to make it) that one of the north American cultures had the Europeans play the 'divinity' angle on them, which to the surprise of the Europeans didn't work and they got their arses kicked. Now that wasn't read anywhere with any ability to reference, so it quite easily could have been a crock, but it IS something I heard... which means that a lot of people believe the myth.I don't think it changes too much though. A mesoAmerica with decent technology gunpowder would have a tremendous advantage. The point you made earlier about the Europeans losing the first engagement and Cortez not being deterred, well, wouldn't it also be quite reasonable to assume that he wasn't deterred because he had the advantage of ships that couldn't be touched, so could land where he wanted - "hit 'em where they aint" so to speak - whereas something like THIS would certainly mean that the Europeans could be hit.
I'm not saying that the New Worlders would have a series of forts that could fight of Overlord. I'm saying that it would change things pretty dramatically.
They would need a series of coastal fortifications to have the ability to deny hitting them where they ain't. Adding gunpowder does not change that if there are no defenders in X place, that's all there needs to be to make aun unopposed landing.
Also: The use of wood for cannon making could be dictated either by the lack of metal, or the lack of skill to engineer metallic cannons. Wooden cannons were notoriously weak, and could usually fire only a few shots, sometimes even just one shot, before bursting.[1]
Given how devastating a bursting cannon is - and how useless - this is really going to cool enthusiasm for them.
Also: The use of wood for cannon making could be dictated either by the lack of metal, or the lack of skill to engineer metallic cannons. Wooden cannons were notoriously weak, and could usually fire only a few shots, sometimes even just one shot, before bursting.[1]
Given how devastating a bursting cannon is - and how useless - this is really going to cool enthusiasm for them.
I've just had a thought which runs counter to my earlier views on this. That is, from my understanding most of the conflict in the New World (New World vs New World) was ritualistic with the soul aim of capturing the enemy for sacrifice.
If true gunpowder is unlikely to develop as a weapon as the logical advancement in firearms would render too many dead.
I'd be interested in others opinion on this - I'm not very convinced of my history in this regard.
If true gunpowder is unlikely to develop as a weapon as the logical advancement in firearms would render too many dead.
I'd be interested in others opinion on this - I'm not very convinced of my history in this regard.
Which may point them in another direction. You're going with the European solution, which the Americas had little ability to do. The vast majority of 'firearms' in asia were rocketry. Not particularly effective, but known to be more effective against mounted (one of Cortez' advantage).
SOrry I have to go so can't comment further. I want to but gotta run.
More like the Mexica hegemony rested on a bunch of shared rules and assumptions that the individual rival states did not dare break, but Cortez totally did. Cortez was playing by different rules and alliance with Cortez proved to be a decisive difference between the losses the other Mesoamericans suffered before, and victories they achieved after. Powder was very minor in the whole equation, political savvy though...followed distantly by steel. That was decisive.
Fair enough. I'll bow to your greater knowledge... but so should a lot of others
I don't think it changes too much though. A mesoAmerica with decent technology gunpowder would have a tremendous advantage. The point you made earlier about the Europeans losing the first engagement and Cortez not being deterred, well, wouldn't it also be quite reasonable to assume that he wasn't deterred because he had the advantage of ships that couldn't be touched, so could land where he wanted - "hit 'em where they aint" so to speak - whereas something like THIS would certainly mean that the Europeans could be hit.
I'm not saying that the New Worlders would have a series of forts that could fight of Overlord. I'm saying that it would change things pretty dramatically.
The seed of this myth comes from Montezuma using the Nahautl word Teotl to describe Cortes. It's often erroneously translated as 'God' by the Spanish. It actually is a term for the spiritual energy that makes up existence, the breath of the Mesoamerican creator Ometeotl. So this didn't mean he was divine, but he might have had power like a priest does.
This goes along with how the many 'gods' of the Mexica and other Nahua speaking people were viewed. They aren't deities like Greek gods, which were akin to divine human beings, but more like autonomous aspects of Ometeotl, who in themselves had several aspects they took depending on the situation.