What if Mesoamericans developed Gunpowder?

[othyrsyde]

gotcha. Maybe then the best idea as someone suggested is to take inspiration from what is known of Mesoamerican cultures but scratch building a "fantasy" version of them.

Yeah, sick looking stone cannons carved with Mesoamerican art that shoot obsidian is better for a Fantasy setting themed around those cultures. Trying to pull this off in reality isn't going to work so well. There's lots of good suggestions and arguments in this thread, and its largely avoided turning into a circle jerk (which it seemed to be going last night, hence my original bowing out). Overall, there's better PODs than independent production of gunpowder for a surviving Mesoamerican culture and nations, but it's interesting to see what can and can't be done with all our brainstorming.

 

[Ravenflight]

How many of those timelines can exist outside ASB? Not very many.

Not many. But we're not after a plethora of them... we're after the one where it works.

I disagree. The discussion should weigh whether or not the prospect is actually viable, and if not, well, tough patooties.

Sure, but it IS possible. It's just highly unlikely. I think I've even stated that. But if it is possible, then how? And that's the angle I've gone on. No problem with you not wanting to go down that road, and I truly DO value your comments so that I think the right way (or try to).

Some times, the answer to "Can this be made to work?" is no.

Yes, but in this particular case I don't think 'no' is the correct answer. I think you yourself have even posted that it is possible, but unlikely - I'm not sure I'd have to search and I don't have the (easy) ability right now (on my phone).

It would be better for both the site in general and the original poster in particular for s/he to listen to the reasons why such and such an idea would not work than to be told that s/he should never ever drop an idea no matter what indicates that idea is unworkable.

Hmm, it's not binary. There isn't only one or another option. The other option is that what they had in mind wouldn't work, but maybe a modification of that idea would.

The original poster obviously finds Mesoamerica interesting. This is good and should be encouraged. They also seem to be interested in technology, at least in theory. Also something that should be encouraged.

But I will argue strongly against encouraging clinging to the possibility that out of uncountable timelines that can be invented that involve gunpowder that stone cannons or rockets (made of what?) that one must exist that would not be ASB, regardless of any reasons why things just don't work that way.

Sure, but it reminds me of Edison inventing the light bulb... he found many ways that DIDN'T work and kept working on it until he found one that did. The stone cannon wouldn't work... ok, let's scrap that idea and move onto another idea... etc etc

 

[Reader347]

I can imagine:

"Oh look, the foreign devils are throwing crockery at us....HOLY CRAP ! WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT ?!?! "

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Probably much along those very lines. There were plenty of burning things being flung about, but the BANG at the end of the whoosh was a bit much.

 

[Elfwine]

Not many. But we're not after a plethora of them... we're after the one where it works.
[quote[

And the fact that it may not exist has to be examined far more carefully than "rockets are simpler than cannon, so let's talk about rockets instead".

Yes, but in this particular case I don't think 'no' is the correct answer. I think you yourself have even posted that it is possible, but unlikely - I'm not sure I'd have to search and I don't have the (easy) ability right now (on my phone).

I don't think it's impossible, but I don't think it's impossible that Pickett's Charge could have the Union army surrender in sheer shock either. No natural laws need to be violated for that to occur, no new scientific theories on the nature of the universe.

It's just not going to happen.

The question that has to be asked and analyzed is "Would this be just as bad?"

I am not overwhelmed by the arguments that it isn't, since they constantly treat it as if the development is easy, logical, and a natural progression from point A ("this stuff really stinks when it burns") to Point * (rockets, cannons, grenades, whatever).

Hmm, it's not binary. There isn't only one or another option. The other option is that what they had in mind wouldn't work, but maybe a modification of that idea would.

So, it doesn't actually matter if the idea is infeasible, because we can generate an infinite number of alternate ideas?

Sure, but it reminds me of Edison inventing the light bulb... he found many ways that DIDN'T work and kept working on it until he found one that did. The stone cannon wouldn't work... ok, let's scrap that idea and move onto another idea... etc etc

This is nothing like Edison inventing the light bulb. This would be like Edison trying to invent a light blub and settling for developing penicillin and claiming success because he found something he could make.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

Assuming the Spainiards were quickly defeated by the gunpowder-wielding Mayans and retreated, plagues would've still spread albeit only killing half as much people in Central America since there were no more Europeans staying there to spread as much disease.

It would be like the New World's equivalent to the Black Death (which pretty much occurred in OTL, only with the presence of Imperialists to make things even worse).

 

[Flocculencio]

Assuming the Spainiards were quickly defeated by the gunpowder-wielding Mayans and retreated, plagues would've still spread albeit only killing half as much people in Central America since there were no more Europeans staying there to spread as much disease.

It would be like the New World's equivalent to the Black Death (which pretty much occurred in OTL, only with the presence of Imperialists to make things even worse).

There don't need to be more Europeans. Once the diseases get introduced they spread by themselves among the American populations. The diseases destroyed societies which never saw an European. The Mound Builders of the Mississippi valley, for example, finally collapsed because of plagues while there was little to no European contact of that region.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

There don't need to be more Europeans. Once the diseases get introduced they spread by themselves among the American populations. The diseases destroyed societies which never saw an European. The Mound Builders of the Mississippi valley, for example, finally collapsed because of plagues while there was little to no European contact of that region.

Okay, so maybe the effects would've been the same, but rather than being being completely absorbed by the European way of life, certain Mesoamerican cultures and nations would've eventually recovered and had a comeback like Europe after the Black Death.

 

[othyrsyde]

To add to what Flocc said, the Inca were hit by the plagues before the Spaniards showed up. It instigated a civil war over succession, and was the primary reason that Pizarro and his crew were able to pull off a conquest by wandering into a massive conflict zone.

 

[Elfwine]

Okay, so maybe the effects would've been the same, but rather than being being completely absorbed by the European way of life, certain Mesoamerican cultures and nations would've eventually recovered and had a comeback like Europe after the Black Death.

Not comparable, especially given the massively higher death rate from Eurasian diseases in the New World vs. the Black Death in Europe.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

In order to work, theoretical canons made of stone would have to be at least 10 feet in diameter. As I said before, they'd only be good for one or two shots and be completely immobile.

Although Wooden canons made by Mesoamericans are feasible too, if not more likely. If you find stone canons too ridiculous, I'd settle on wood ones.

Just re-vitalizing this thread before it's too late.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

Sorry to double post, but let me move on from discussing the cannons.

Regarding the plagues from Europe, the Mesoamericans would've still been decimated one way or the other, but if they leave Aztec/Mayan territory upon being defeated, the local population would be given some time to recover depending on how long the Europeans stay out.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

That is a very important point to consider. Far too many people on this forum treat historical Europeans as mindless machines with their minds bent on killing and conquering all that lay before them, instead of ascribing them with realistic human motivations and whatnot. Rather ironic given the forum's generally Eurocentric slant. But yeah, it's not programming or destiny for the King of Spain to pack shiploads of armed lunatics like sardines and keep sending them west until they conquer whatever civilizations the writer heard of in the name of Spain or wherever.

 

[othyrsyde]

That is a very important point to consider. Far too many people on this forum treat historical Europeans as mindless machines with their minds bent on killing and conquering all that lay before them, instead of ascribing them with realistic human motivations and whatnot. Rather ironic given the forum's generally Eurocentric slant. But yeah, it's not programming or destiny for the King of Spain to pack shiploads of armed lunatics like sardines and keep sending them west until they conquer whatever civilizations the writer heard of in the name of Spain or wherever.

Well said, and something one of the underling points of Children of the Sun.

Also, the last part will be sigged if you don't mind.

 

[Malta]

Especially if things go down with the Revolt in Spain and war with Philip

 

[Petike]

Our late, great member Robert once wrote a timeline based around this idea : http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/the_guns_of_the_tawantinsuya

Though it involves Incas instead of Mesoamericans. You might want to check it out. At least you'll know whether you can write a more realistic version or something in that vein (different outcomes, etc.).

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

Our late, great member Robert once wrote a timeline based around this idea : http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/the_guns_of_the_tawantinsuya

Though it involves Incas instead of Mesoamericans. You might want to check it out. At least you'll know whether you can write a more realistic version or something in that vein (different outcomes, etc.).

Thanks for the link! It's a shame the author had to pass away.

 

[PhoenicianLegacy]

This would be the sight of mayans going into battle:

Did you do that picture? It's very clever.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Did you do that picture? It's very clever.

yup, thanks. someone had requested it for a projected anthology that was never made.