What if:Marc Antony Wins at Actium

I was assigned an alternate history paper, one of the optiosn is what if Marc Antony had won the Battle of actium. What do you think would happen?

My idea was to write the paper as if I was writing it in an alteratnie universe, in this universe the huge long last empire was not Rome, but the Hellenistic-Egyptian empire. My idea was that after the battle, Antony would use egyptian/eastern troops to subjagate the west and move the capital to Alexandria and start Romanizing Alexandria. I am debating whether he stays the whole time as her co-ruler of sorts or if they have a falling out and one of them kills the other.

Thoughts?
 
I was assigned an alternate history paper, one of the optiosn is what if Marc Antony had won the Battle of actium. What do you think would happen?

My idea was to write the paper as if I was writing it in an alteratnie universe, in this universe the huge long last empire was not Rome, but the Hellenistic-Egyptian empire. My idea was that after the battle, Antony would use egyptian/eastern troops to subjagate the west and move the capital to Alexandria and start Romanizing Alexandria. I am debating whether he stays the whole time as her co-ruler of sorts or if they have a falling out and one of them kills the other.

Thoughts?

At best, following a victory at Aktion, Marc Antony gets to keep Egypt and parts of the East. There is no way that the Romans will have any loyalty whatsoever to someone who moves his capital to Alexandria and abandons Rome, regardless of how he behaves after this.
So the wars drag on for several more years. Antony is hated as a "Greek King" and all Italy and the West is up in revolt against him. Assuming he survives Aktion, Octavian will be back to stir up trouble just as soon as the dust has settled. Perhaps Lepidus re-emerges?
Anyway, let's say Egypt and the Egyptians are able to resist the Romans for quite a long period of time, perhaps by winning a couple of "lucky break" victories. The Romans invest much more in North Africa as their breadbasket, and are disinclined to go off on adventures in Germany and Parthia. Eventually I think Egypt is doomed to fall under Roman control; but I think the really massive changes in this timeline could come from Christianity; imagine a world where Judea is on the frontline between Roman and Egyptian control, and Jesus is a soldier!
I hope these ideas are of use to you!
 
He only had his capital in Alexandria because Octavian had Rome. That was the way the operation worked...

The Roman populace supported Marc Anthony until he claimed himself to be an incarnation of Horus. The only way of Marc Anthony becoming Roman Emperor (or more likely Consul) is giving him some sense and stop him from making said claims. This probably means that Octavian moves against him later, I'm not sure of the geography but there probably isn't an Actium. Regardless, it was down to well-set strategic differences that Anthony lost, Anthony had big ships, Octavian little ships. The little ships outmanouvred the big ships.
 
If Antony won at Actium he would move on Italy. Octavian would probably continue to resist, raising new troops in Italy. If Octavian's main commander, Agrippa, dies at Actium, then I think Antony has a decent shot at taking Italy.

Once he wins, he's probably going to try and raise a new expedition to fight the Persians. I don't know that Antony is going to be able to maintain his position at the top of the Roman heap as effectively as Octavian. Octavian was a master politician who was able to maintain his power, but not throw it in the face of the Roman people. Antony was not subtle, or particularly intelligent when it came to playing politics.

So . . . I think that you might end up with Roman politics being more easternized, with Antony bringing his children by Cleopatra back to the West, along with Caesarion, Caesar's son by Cleopatra. Caesarion would end up becoming a powerful symbol around which those elements opposed to Antony could rally.

So the personal politics that dominated the last generation of the Roman Republic becomes even more personalized, with what amount to potential Roman dynasties squaring off for power. This could end up having the effect of destroying not just the actual balance of power between the institutions of the Roman Republic, but the institutions themselves.

In the long-run, the destruction of the Roman Republic could be a good thing for the stability of the Empire. Rather than pretend for the next centuries that the "Roman Republic" exists and paying lip service to it, the Republic is swept away, and a true "Empire" with a new constiutional order where an "Imperial" leader has absolute power. That could lend stability to the order of succession, since the fiction of the Republic kept the Emperors from being able to practice totally open royal politics.
 
Maybe as a POD, Anthony does better on his Parthian Campaign (concentrates on it earlier rather than offering help to Octavian in his own campaign, for instance)? His campaign is at least a moderate success, with him subduing the region and avenging crassus, not to mention recovering a few eagles. Anthony is now in a better position than OTL vis a vis Octavian. Since his victorious artian campaign presumably places a more pragmatic mindset on him, thus removing some of his worst decisions (like the Horus bit). So come Actium equivalent (call it what you like), Anthony has a much more secure power base in Rome and in the Levant, and can defeat Octavian.

Perhaps as important is what Anthony wants. The real question is whether he is going to try to return the Roman republic to a republic, make it the old republic but controled by semi-permanent dictators, become a de facto emperor a la Octavian, give power to the plebs, or something else. I defer answering this question to somebody else, as I don't know enough about his personality to make a realistic call (although from what I know, several of these routes seem at least plausible).
 
I guess what I'm imagining is, he defeats Octavius, killing him. Cleopatra convinces him to focus on solidifying the east (i.e. Greece, Syria and the Levant). In the meantime Italy falls to civil war. Antony uses his secure base and retakes North Africa, and part of Spain.

He gets sick and dies while on his way back to spain to conquer the rest. Ceaserion takes over command and proves to be an even better General then his father, retaking the rest of the Empire (save Britian and Germany).

However due to the hostile nature of the Roman popualce he opts to stay in egypt, bringing back Romans loyal to his father to settle in egypt. Thus creating a further hybrid civilization in Egypt.

My idea is to format the paper as "The Alexandrian Encyclopedia on Ancinet History" and to do a series of Encyclopedia entries.
 
If Antony won at Actium he would move on Italy. .

If Antony won at Actium, Octavian would take Alexandria not in 30, but in 29 BC. Antoniy lost this war long before Actium.
Do you know that before Actiom there was mass desertion from his army to Octavian?

The POD I think - Antoniy did not marry Cleopatra. In this case he has some chances.
 
If Octavius looses Actium, I think the war continues.

Ultimately, because of Octavius's politicing back in Rome, the best that
Antonius can hope for is a divided Roman Empire. The Greek and Aramaic eastern half of the empire would have little trouble being ruled from Alexandria. At this point in history though, Rome itself would never allow itself to be ruled by a foreign power (which by Actium is how they saw Antonius).

If Rome proved one thing in its history, it was that it didn't let a little thing like a defeat or 20 stop it from pressing forward.

--
Bill
 
If Octavius looses Actium, I think the war continues.

Ultimately, because of Octavius's politicing back in Rome, the best that
Antonius can hope for is a divided Roman Empire. The Greek and Aramaic eastern half of the empire would have little trouble being ruled from Alexandria. At this point in history though, Rome itself would never allow itself to be ruled by a foreign power (which by Actium is how they saw Antonius).

If Rome proved one thing in its history, it was that it didn't let a little thing like a defeat or 20 stop it from pressing forward.

--
Bill

Oh yea. Hence me having Antony and Ceaserion conquer them. The Romans would be on an easternized version of their own medicine in the end.

Basically I'm imaginging an earlier hellinzation of Roman civlization and a greater impact of the hellenes on our civilization.
 
Oh yea. Hence me having Antony and Ceaserion conquer them. The Romans would be on an easternized version of their own medicine in the end.

Basically I'm imaginging an earlier hellinzation of Roman civlization and a greater impact of the hellenes on our civilization.

But like I said, conquest is easier said than done. The Romans up through at least second century AD generally showed themselves to have one response to a defeat; raise an even larger army and try again. At Actium, the war was far away from Rome. But had the War moved into the Western Med, the number of legions would have grown quickly enough to the point that I doubt that Anthony could ever have hoped to defeat Rome as a whole.

In other words, the best way for Anthony to have won that war was to have never gone back to Egypt in the first place.

--
Bill
 
He only had his capital in Alexandria because Octavian had Rome. That was the way the operation worked...

The Roman populace supported Marc Anthony until he claimed himself to be an incarnation of Horus. The only way of Marc Anthony becoming Roman Emperor (or more likely Consul) is giving him some sense and stop him from making said claims.
Anthony had been Consul before. This is precisely what had been his official position at Ides of March. And he could be Consul again. Octavianus had been Consul and was to be Consul again on and off. But at the time of Actium, Octavianus had no legitimate position. He was a private citizen - his 5 year commission as triumvir had expired - who was intimidating the Senate by illegal threat of violence. Both the legal Consuls had fled Rome and were leading the dutiful Roman governor Anthony.
But like I said, conquest is easier said than done. The Romans up through at least second century AD generally showed themselves to have one response to a defeat; raise an even larger army and try again. At Actium, the war was far away from Rome. But had the War moved into the Western Med, the number of legions would have grown quickly enough to the point that I doubt that Anthony could ever have hoped to defeat Rome as a whole.
Sulla did conquer Roman Republic. Most of it - Sertorius did hold out in Spain for ten or so years until brought down by Sulla´s successors. Most of the armies Anthony used at Actium were Romans. Some were not, but Sulla, Pompey and Liberators had all required friends and allies of Roman people to fight for Rome, even against rebels.
 
But like I said, conquest is easier said than done. The Romans up through at least second century AD generally showed themselves to have one response to a defeat; raise an even larger army and try again. At Actium, the war was far away from Rome. But had the War moved into the Western Med, the number of legions would have grown quickly enough to the point that I doubt that Anthony could ever have hoped to defeat Rome as a whole.

In other words, the best way for Anthony to have won that war was to have never gone back to Egypt in the first place.

--
Bill

All fair points. However a son of Caesar consolidating the Roman Territories again, especially after conquering his way around Italy (Spain and Gaul) and the internal civil war that would have been happening (because there was no one else besides Octavian or Antony to dominate) people would be glad to have a passable roman to give them stablity.

Of course I am very much open too the reconquest of the west being like Justinian's, i.e. temporary but all in all I am imaginging a powerful Egyptian empire with a heavy roman influence (Antony and his allies putting Roman Military tactics into egypt) ruling the Eastern Empire and perhaps parts of Parthia.
 
So here is my paper on the topic. Anyone have thoughts? Keep in mind the paper has to be short and the purpose is to show a enough knowledge of Roman history to craft a realistic alternative. Please let me know of any historical problems you see!

Also please let me know if it would be eaiser to read in another format, I realize it is rather long. Would you prefer each time stamp be its own post? Or should it not be quoted?

Story: What if Mark Antony won the Battle of Actium?
Methone, 31 BCE:

Marcus Agrippa walked down the main street, his trusted Lieutenants walked with him towards the harbor. The street was quiet in the aftermath of the sack; those men not on guard duty had worn themselves out on the towns wine supply and women. His scribe wrote rapidly next to him as he began to list off provisions needed to restock the ships.

As he passed a house, still smoldering from a fire the previous night the thunk of an arrow hitting wood. Before his men could respond more arrows began pouring wildly from behind the burned out skeleton of the building. Moving in they grabbed 6 boys ranging in age from 12-14 with sloppy looking bows, two of whom broke. The boys looked up terrified at the men and two of the youngest began to cry. They turned to ask the General what to do when they saw him on the ground, an arrow in his neck.

Alexandria, winter 31 BCE:

Chamain[1] watched and smiled from the balcony was her mistress and her husband rode through the broad streets of Alexandria in the second great triumph the city had seen. Behind them ruined prows from Octavian’s ships sat atop carts pulled by horses. Finally came Octavian, starved and in a cage. His body wrapped in tattered rags, he was pelted with rotten produce. As the last of the chariots passed her balcony she went inside to prepare for the feast tonight.

“We can’t!” came the yell from the war council as Chamain approached carrying her mistresses drink. She opened the door quietly; Antony stood looking over a map on the wall. Her mistress stood next to him and went on “And what if the men don’t come to you! You can’t take away all the troops we have here, the Parthians[2] are still angry at the tribute you charged them. You won’t have enough to seem powerful without them!” She turned to Chamain and started to drink deeply from the cup.

He turned back to her as his men looked down at the table “The men back in Italy already aren’t sure I’m still a Roman. If the bulk of my fighting men are Egyptians I will hand my enemies a very sharp sword with which to strike the men’s ties with me.”

As Chamain left Cleopatra started again “And they can still strike at those ties! If you don’t have enough men you won’t be able to tempt them with victory. You’ll be an UnRoman general leading a too small Roman force.
“She closed the door as she heard Antony’s hand pound down on the table in anger.

Port of Alexandria, spring 29 BCE:

Chamain watched Antony and his men board the ships, the Romans and the Egyptian soldiers boarding together. Her mistress said Antony wanted to use the voyage to help break down the barriers. Her mistress hugged Antony close and kissed him and whispered good luck in his ear. He smiled and waved to the crowd as he walks up the plank and the ships begin to set sail.

Nearly a week later Chamain was bringing a warm drink to her Mistress late at night and saw her looking over letters worriedly. Setting the drink down quietly she asked “Will there be anything else right now?”

Cleopatra sighed and responded “Yes, my eyes are tiring. Can you read this letter for me while I rest my eyes?”

Chamain took the letter and replied “Of course mistress, it says:

Salve General Antony!
I, Centurion Titus Pullo send you word of the goings on in Italy. I will be blunt, it is a true mess. When word came you had been victorious your supporters rioted, attacking senators and knights who had been backing Octavian while there supporters all fled to the countryside. Than when you had to go fend off the Parthians instead of coming straight here things started to really fall apart.
Octavian’s supporters have split up into factions all over Italy and Hispania, Gaul is lost for now as the proconsul there brought his troops down (well part-one of his commanders brought part down to Hispania as well). It’s civil war all over again, but worse than before because no one seems to be in charge (well till recently, see below). My cohort has changed sides more than I can count; we are presently serving under some Knight from Ostia. He’s a good one of the few of your supporters who hasn’t fled to Africa or the East.
And that’s the other thing-so many of your supporters are leaving, often without a lot of their clients, is that most everyone left are people who were in deep with Octavian or think this is their chance to improve their lot. Either way they don’t want you around. When word you were getting ready to come back to Italy they had a big meeting and just about everyone agreed to work against you. They seem to change commanders every day, but they are starting to work together.
-Centurion Pullo…That is all Mistress”.

Cleopatra shrieked as tears streamed down her face. “And Antony thinks they are a disorganized rabble. What is going to do when he finds his enemies arrayed against him! It would have been better if those cowards had stayed to keep them divided rather then run here and mooch off Antony and I.” She collapsed back in the sobbing as Chamain attended to her, whipping her tears gently.

Alexandria, Late fall 25 BCE:

A third great triumph, bigger than both of the other two combined. The King and princes of Parthia took the place of Octavian and his generals. Antony on the first chariot, this time with both Cleopatra and the young Caesarion. Antony’s age is becoming more obvious, and the gray in his hair is fully dominant. Meanwhile Caesarion looks youthful and vigorous, and his victories in the Parthian campaign have sent his popularity to unprecedented levels. Chamain shakes her head, a young man and an old sharing glory, no this cannot end well.

She watched as more and more carts pass, both Roman and Egyptian soldiers passed loot out to the city populace. The Romans looked happy and tanned, but Chamain couldn’t help but wondering what would happen to them. Many were looking old as well, and they wouldn’t want to be soldiers their whole lives. She paused on the balcony to smile at her mistress and then turned back to attend to preparing the feast.

Alexandria, early spring 23 BCE

Serving dinner to her mistress, Antony and several of the Romans and Caesarion were discussing the upcoming campaign. She smiled inwardly as her mistress laid out why she should come along. Looking at Antony’s face she could see that he didn’t mind it, but his officers, old Roman stick in the muds, were absolutely against it. The Egyptian Generals of course supported it whole heartedly as did the various local administrators who were doubly happy at the prospect that they could further delay handing over the vast land holdings to the Roman veterans that was being deeded them by Antony and Cleopatra.

The debate however was severely shortened when Antony’s best Lieutenants, Lucius Vorenus, put his food down and turned to Antony “Sir, with all due respect I have to tell you that if her majesty insists on marching with us, I will not be able to march with you, and I know that is the feeling among many of the men as well. It is simply bad luck.” Antony gripped his cup tightly; she could see in his face he knew this was true. He nodded towards Vorenus “Fair point good friend. We simply cannot afford mass desertion by some of my best units.”The queen pursed her lips but then smiled “Of course-you are the military commander.” However her impish smile showed the matter was not quite settled.

Nova Carthago, Late Summer 23 BCE
“I tell you mother, he is an unbearable stick in the mud-him and Vorenus both. The rest all agree with me, we should be going after those soldiers. The cream of the Republics army fleeing across Africa, half unarmed. Should we let them get to Hispania before we pursue them? I can’t tell whether he is being stubborn or if the prospect of us really defeating Rome bothers him. But we have to do something mother. “Caesarion took a deep draught of a drink, Chamain and her mistress had come to celebrate Antony’s victory over Nova Carthago. Her mistress nodded the serving girl out of the room and then looked back at Chamain. Chamain saw the sadness in her eyes but she simply gives a small nod. Chamain felt the small vial in her pocket again and Cleopatra looked back at Caesarion and said “I think you’re right son. Antony is an old man, and he is being overly cautious. We will speak with him about it tonight at dinner.”

Dinner began later, a small affair of the top officers and Cleopatra. After a good meal Cleopatra turned to Antony and asked “So how goes the pursuit of the soldiers whose fleet your burned? I didn’t see nearly enough graves to have burned all the soldiers.”

Instead of answering Antony turned towards Caesarion and threw his wine in his face. “Stupid boy-when I give an order it is final. Don’t go running to your mother.” Slamming down his cup he got off his couch and stalked off, Vorenus with him. The other Roman officers followed more reluctantly. Cleopatra followed Antony to his room and pulled him. She apologized with a kiss and closed the door behind her.

The next morning Chamain woke and observed the preparing of the Breakfast for the royal family. Antony liked his food with a different seasoning than the rest of them, and today he would certainly get it. As the food was served Antony seemed much happier than in previous days, her mistress seemed so too, but the sadness in her eyes was just barely noticeable. Finishing his food he went towards the parade ground. Barely 5 minutes later, a commotion erupted on the path towards the grounds. Antony had been seized by a sudden shooting pain in his left arm, and less than two minutes later he was dead.

Alexandria, winter 23 BCE

The Roman officers and Caesarion were having an intense discussion. Supposedly arguing about which way to invade Italy, which had fallen apart in civil war again, it ended with Vorenus yelling at Caesarion “This wouldn’t be an issue if your whore of a mother hadn’t poisoned Proconsul Antony!”

The room went silent for a minute Caesarion stared at Vorenus and then said “ Leave,” Vorenus looked about the room for support, but no one would meet his eyes. He spit towards the Roman Generals and stormed out and back to his house near the palace. Back at his house he wrote a letter indicating that he left his estates to Antony’s sons and then he ordered his long faithful slave to hold a sword as he jumped on it.

Rome, fall 19 BCE

Caesarion and his army marched through in triumph, the crowd cheered the gold being thrown to them, but it seemed subdued even so. From the balcony she could see men glowering at Caesarion. Her mistress lay on a couch overlooking as well. She was sick and the journey has been trouble for her. Caesarion was being married to a Roman woman of high family to help solidify the support of the local nobles.

Chamain whispered to her mistress “You have succeeded Mistress, your son rules Rome.” A sickly Cleopatra nodded and added “but for how long?” Chamain nodded understanding, watching Caearion’s brothers riding after him, Antony’s sons and not overly pleased at their fathers end. Cleopatra began coughing again and Chamain went into the room to get more water. When she came out Cleopatra lay on the floor, heaving up blood.

Alexandria. Fall 18 BCE

“We can’t! Not until they get used to it!” Caesarion and his brothers were debating where to put the Capital. Alexandria and Rome both had their own problems. If they stayed in Alexandria they were consigning themselves to ending up ruling just Egypt again-the internal politics were too consuming. They couldn’t put it to Rome either, the riots following their mothers funeral proved that too. Looking at a map of their empire the three brothers pondered. Alexander pointed to a spot between Asia Minor and Europe “What about a city there? It would be new, a close to Alexandria, Rome and Ctesiphon and is on a good trading route. The eldest brother looked skeptical; Alexander said “We could name it Caesaronia after your illustrious father”. He nodded and his other brother nodded in agreement as well as the three exchange glances, Chamain looked on wondering how long this would last.

[1] Chamain was Cleopatra’s close servant.

[2] In this timeline Antony had a victory over the Parthia’s, but only took Armenia and the former roman territories-taking tribute instead.



 
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