What if lombards capture rome?

What would have happened if the lombards had captured rome instead of being defeated by the franks?
And what would happen to the pope?
 
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What would have happened if the lombards had captured rome instead of being defeated by the franks?

In order to accomplish this, you are going to have to exit Charlemagne stage left. Luckily, accidents do happen. If you do it early, you might see the ascention of Carloman (whose pretty much a blank canvas) or, if you really want to disrupt the Franks, have Charles cstch an illness after Carloman's death. Not sure who leads the Franks in such a case, but I doubt it will be a smooth transition.

Anyway, the capture of Rome would, at least for the time being, solidify Lombard control over the north, and should allow the King to extend his authority over the southern duchies of Beneveto and Spolleto. After that, the biggest problem you will have is that the power of the Kings had been deteriorating against that of the Dukes since its height under Luitprand.
 
Could you possibly see the king being able to consolidate his power than because of the fact he captured Rome. Use possession of Rome as legitimacy.
 
Could you possibly see the king being able to consolidate his power than because of the fact he captured Rome. Use possession of Rome as legitimacy.

A king could probably do it, but it would be personal legitimacy, not the legitimacy of office. The Lombards had much less respect for the bishop of Rome than the Franks, schooled in Anglo-Saxon views of papacy, so even a coronation there wouild not do much. And the dukes will never forget that the kingship is something they can aspire to. There is simply no tradition comparable to Merovingian Königsheil or Carolingian apostolic blessing to set a Lombard king apart from his nobles. His only chance, I think, would be to acquire large royal estates in the conquest and hang on to them by virtue of office. But I don't think that's realistically feasiblew. He has to give his army something, too.
 
Perhaps the best way would be for Luitprand to have a more compitent successor who qoupd be able to expand upon his gains and take Rome and continue his support for the Franks. If the new King is able to gain some important lands, and have a secure reign, it might do much to create more of a Kingly tradition amongst the Lombards.

I wrote a paper about royal authority amongst the Lombards a few years ago for grad school. I will have to go back and look it over.
 
What would have happened if the lombards had captured rome instead of being defeated by the franks?
And what would happen to the pope?

If the Lombards have already assimilated, as they did IOTL when the Franks came, then no way would the Pope be in trouble. Only Napoleon really at all sparred with the Pope as part of the flock at the gates of the Vatican (at a distance could be dangerous too, though Henry the VII and some others did it with difficulty). Attilla does not count as he was not a believer and seems to have been fended off by Malaria fronting for other plagues.

Also of note, Rome was not as it once was. The city was down to as low as 400 hardscrabble inhabitants around the time of the Franks, give or take a hundred years. So I have read.

The Lombards came to Italy as people who never bathed and literally drank from the skulls of their enemies (Goth chick princess had to drink from her own father's fresh skull in sight of the Lombard King, who married her). They later became among the most educated of Europeans, in part because the Franks allowed them to keep the lands as long as the imperial percentage always got sent. It did.
 
If the Lombards have already assimilated, as they did IOTL when the Franks came, then no way would the Pope be in trouble. Only Napoleon really at all sparred with the Pope as part of the flock at the gates of the Vatican (at a distance could be dangerous too, though Henry the VII and some others did it with difficulty). Attilla does not count as he was not a believer and seems to have been fended off by Malaria fronting for other plagues.

The problem is that the OTL Lombards, even after becoming culturally assimilated, still spared and feuded with the Pope. Luitprand, for instance, was more than willing to cozy up with the Pope in order to present himself as a defender of Catholicism during the Iconoclast heresy and offering to defend the Pope against the Exarch of Ravenna (and, at the same time, making an alliance with Ravenna to protect IT from the Pope!)

As rulers in Italy did throughout history, the Lombards seemed to make a distinction between the Pope as spiritual ruler and the Pope as a political and temporal ruler. They were more than willing to war against the later, while still supporting the prior.

Mind you, the Papacy of which we speak is NOT the Papacy of the High Middle Ages. At the very latest, we will be seeing the fall of Rome during the beginning of the reign of Gregory the Great. At this point, the Papacy is just beginning to emerge from being under the thumb of the Byzantine Emperor and has yet to expand is temporal power much beyond the borders of Rome (in fact, the Pope has only just begun to view himself of the city of Rome, itself!)

If the Lombards take Rome the Papacy is safe, as in it will certainly continue to exist, but any future Pope is going to have a King breathing down his neck, just as the Patriarch does in Constantinople. Due to the fact that the Lombard Kings are less powerful than the Emperor, the chances are good that the Pope remains more autonomous than the Patriarch, but only so much. (I could certainly see the Pope continuing to play the Franks against the Lombards in order to increase his strength. However with no more internal threats in Italy, chances are good that the Franks won't be able to secure as sweeping of a victory as in OTL).

Also, I believe the Lombards maintain their capital in Pavia instead of Rome; possible, in order to secure the support of the chastened Pope, Rome still remains under his jurisdiction, but his independence is highly curtailed.
 
In order to accomplish this, you are going to have to exit Charlemagne stage left. Luckily, accidents do happen. If you do it early, you might see the ascention of Carloman (whose pretty much a blank canvas) or, if you really want to disrupt the Franks, have Charles cstch an illness after Carloman's death. Not sure who leads the Franks in such a case, but I doubt it will be a smooth transition.

Anyway, the capture of Rome would, at least for the time being, solidify Lombard control over the north, and should allow the King to extend his authority over the southern duchies of Beneveto and Spolleto. After that, the biggest problem you will have is that the power of the Kings had been deteriorating against that of the Dukes since its height under Luitprand.

What would happen to the frankish kingdom?
 
What would happen to the frankish kingdom?

I'm not particularly sure, as I don't know the makeup of Charlemange's extended family. I would suspect that a number of cousins and other minor lords would rise up in an attempt to secure the throne for themselves. In either case, much of Francia likely falls into a series of Civil Wars until (at best) its united under a new King or (at worst) divided into a series states (likely the concept of Francia remains strong, but with a series of Kings holding parts of it).
 
Presumably this would necessitate a move to the AHB subforum, but I seriously read this as: "What if LEOPARDS capture Rome?"
 
In order to accomplish this, you are going to have to exit Charlemagne stage left. Luckily, accidents do happen. If you do it early, you might see the ascention of Carloman (whose pretty much a blank canvas) or, if you really want to disrupt the Franks, have Charles cstch an illness after Carloman's death. Not sure who leads the Franks in such a case, but I doubt it will be a smooth transition.

Anyway, the capture of Rome would, at least for the time being, solidify Lombard control over the north, and should allow the King to extend his authority over the southern duchies of Beneveto and Spolleto. After that, the biggest problem you will have is that the power of the Kings had been deteriorating against that of the Dukes since its height under Luitprand.

Would the lombards be able to drive the byzantines out of southern italy?
 
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