What if Leeb doesn't burn out the 4th panzer army

In the fall of 1941 Ritter von Leeb commander of army group north made 1 final desperate lunge at Leningrad before the 4th panzer army was taken away to support operation typhoon. the orders advising him to go over to the defensive and to prepare the 4th panzer army for transport had allready been sent. Leeb with the tacit support of Keitel made his one last try at Leningrad's outer defences which was an utter failure. the 1st panzer division in particular was roughly handled but the entire 41st panzer corps as well was exauhsted

what if Leeb followed his orders and pulled his armor out of the line for work with army group center. in this useless offensive he lost over hundred tanks and a lot of good veteren infantry.

does this allow army group center to make that one last final push and break into moscow proper or is it too little too late
 
Hopefully it does.

This would turn Moscow into a larger Stalingrad and may even result in the collapse of Army Group Centre.
 
i would tend to agree... assuming the 4th panzer army was able to use that time for rest and maintenance they would have had more resources to get to moscow... in otl 4th panzer army was one of the formations that got the closest to the capital.

assuming the extra hundred or so tanks and extra motorized infantry allows them to cover the last 20 miles to moscow i could see hitler stupidly deploying more forces into the narrow salient they would create. zhukov would then have an even longer undefended flank to attack. it would be possible if the germans really stuck their head in the noose he could envelope a big part of army group center and end the war in 1941-2
 
Probabaly not 1942 the Red Army just isnt powerful enough to reach Berlin yet. However localized offensives like the 2nd Battle of Kharkov will likely continue throughout the year as the Germans attempt to recover from this titanic defeat. As the Red Army gets stronger these offensives will become bigger and bolder and coupled with an Allied invasion of France in 1943 will probably end the war by 43/44.

This would make a good timeline.
 
I tend to agree the Germans couldnt take Moscow even with Leeb's panzers. It may be make things worse.

For its part the Red Army isnt in any shape to really crush the Germans, at worst the Heer gets pushed back a bit further than it did during the RL Soviet counter-attacks.
 
I tend to agree the Germans couldnt take Moscow even with Leeb's panzers. It may be make things worse.

For its part the Red Army isnt in any shape to really crush the Germans, at worst the Heer gets pushed back a bit further than it did during the RL Soviet counter-attacks.

It depends by what you mean 'crush'.

Army Group Centre ould have collapsed if retreat had turned to panic in OTL which it might have done and Blair makes a good point about how Zhukov would have an even wider and weaker flank to strike.
 
i agree theres no chance that 100 or so tanks lets them take the city... its only possible that they would reach it. but if the germans shifted forces behind the 4th panzer army to try to crack moscow it would make their lines much much thinner than they allready were.

guderian's flanks were allready in the air and the 4th army and 3rd panzer army were exauhsted and overextended. zhukovs siberians could attack the 9th army while there were at least some elements of the german army in the moscow suburbs. he would break through as he did in otl and if the germans were stalingrad stubborn he could cut them off at the oka river line and encircle everything behind him... the germans could never break out of this due to the lack of fuel, infantry, and armored striking power. the stunning cold would also foil any break out attempts.

the loss of the the majority of army group center would be unsustainable... the germans wouldnt be able to reform till they hit the polish border and shortened the front dramatically... with such major losses their chances of resuming the offensive or hitler staying in power are very slim
 
I doubt the Germans will fall apart that badly, they didnt in 1943-4 when they were much more threadbare and the Red Army was immensely stronger than it was in 1941.

The Wehrmatct may suffer losses to a dergree that large scale offensives in 1942 become impossible, but I don’t see them being driven to the Polish border. At best the Soviets re-take most of Belarus & Ukraine before the Red Army runs out of steam.

At this point the U.S.S.R has lost 4 million troops too, you dont turn the tide in one campaign after suffering those losses. The Red Army would need most of 1942 just to re-organize itself. Although Germany could afford the loss of an army group less than the U.S.S.R can afford the loss of four million troops.

Germany for its part may have to pull manpower away from other areas, so this has interesting effects on other fronts. Finland may try to sue for peace with the Soviets. and Romania & Hungry deployed sizeable forces to aid Germany. So ashattering German setback in the east may cause them a high degree of nervousness.
 
I doubt the Germans will fall apart that badly, they didnt in 1943-4 when they were much more threadbare and the Red Army was immensely stronger than it was in 1941.

The Wehrmatct may suffer losses to a dergree that large scale offensives in 1942 become impossible, but I don’t see them being driven to the Polish border. At best the Soviets re-take most of Belarus & Ukraine before the Red Army runs out of steam.

At this point the U.S.S.R has lost 4 million troops too, you dont turn the tide in one campaign after suffering those losses. The Red Army would need most of 1942 just to re-organize itself. Although Germany could afford the loss of an army group less than the U.S.S.R can afford the loss of four million troops.

Germany for its part may have to pull manpower away from other areas, so this has interesting effects on other fronts. Finland may try to sue for peace with the Soviets. and Romania & Hungry deployed sizeable forces to aid Germany. So ashattering German setback in the east may cause them a high degree of nervousness.


the sort of encirclement i described would be devastating. with zhukov's siberians choking off the oka river line army group center would be in huge trouble. the pocket wouldn't be able to dig in or be supplied by air due to the weather. guderian and kluge's infantry divisions in particular were absolutely exauhsted and if cut off from fresh ammunition and evacuation of the wounded might surrender relatively quickly without a pitched battle.

with the loss of most of 2nd panzer army, all of 4th army, all of 3rd panzer army most of 4th panzer army and most of 9th army it would doom army group center.

the remnents of the moscow garrison and zhukovs siberians would be able to advance at will towards the main marshaling rail yards at smolesnk which would be a severe threat to army group north and south's supply lines. a withdrawl to their pre jump of positions wouldnt just be the wise thing to do... it would be the only thing to do to avoid being cut off
 
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