What if: Krum and Nikephoros both slain at Pliska

[Lady Visenya]

What if things in the battle and debacle had gone slightly differently, and ended with the deaths of both the Emperor of the Romans and the Khagan of the Bulgars?

Battle of Pliska - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Krum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nikephoros I - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How does that change things going forward?

 

[Silver01]

by some accounts Omurtag was a child in 814 or not old enough to take the throne with bulgaria been ruled for a short time with Dukum, Ditseng and Tsog , aussming Omurtag was a teen not old enough or there was a little trouble we have no clue what was the age of Omurtag in 811 if he migth be in his early teens or not

krum only big achievement would be that he destroyed the avars as pliska nor the Battle at Versinikia, its possible that Dukum, Ditseng and Tsog just oust krums son and make another round of civil war or Omurtag pulls trougth

this is good news for Michael I but his recociliation policies with no defeat of pliska its possible that Leo does not overthrow him and that leads to a whole butterly effect of no rebellion of thomas but the byzantines have more gain from the respite.

 

[John Farson]

The most relevant question: Does Nikephoros' noggin still wind up as a drinking cup?

 

[Nikoloz]

Could you elaborate, OP, on how the battle goes differently? Does Krum just die from a stray arrow, or are there other differences from OTL?

 

[fraa Jad]

That's an interesting point of divergence. Krum does not die at the siege of Constantinople, but rather at the sacking of his own capital? And Nikephoros also dies there?

 

[Lady Visenya]

Could you elaborate, OP, on how the battle goes differently? Does Krum just die from a stray arrow, or are there other differences from OTL?

Stray arrow or whatever works best. The outcome is more or less as OTL in terms of casualties for the Byzantines and Bulgars. Both men are interesting to me, and while I do have a "Nikephoros lives" TL in the works, this question is more interesting to me.

That's an interesting point of divergence. Krum does not die at the siege of Constantinople, but rather at the sacking of his own capital? And Nikephoros also dies there?

Ye. Both die here. At the mountain passes.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

So really the PoD is only that Krum is KIA at Pliska. Well, actually, not at Pliska, but during the battle at Varbica Pass.

The knock-on is that Krum's 811-814 campaign doesn't happen, as the Bulgars will be held up for a while by the succession crisis. That's good for Byzantium.

 

[Lady Visenya]

So really the PoD is only that Krum is KIA at Pliska. Well, actually, not at Pliska, but during the battle at Varbica Pass.

The knock-on is that Krum's 811-814 campaign doesn't happen, as the Bulgars will be held up for a while by the succession crisis. That's good for Byzantium.

I mean, Byzantium still has to deal with its own succession issues, doesn't it?

 

[Silver01]

I mean, Byzantium still has to deal with its own succession issues, doesn't it?

Not really unless Staurakios sounds are averted

 

[Lady Visenya]

Not really unless Staurakios sounds are averted

I mean, he still gets crippled.

Or do you mean it'd be worse *if he wasn't* crippled? Because uhh... gimme deets. I'm working my way through academic texts on the 8th and early 9th century

 

[TheLionOfJudah]

Leo V would likely use the power vacuum to become Emperor. Plus Bulgaria was already in a precarious position by Pliska, so without Krum to keep it together, it's very much likely that the Balkans would just fall into anarchy once more & Bulgaria with it. Future Emperors would either have a much easier time conquering and subjugating the Balkans, or would ignore it completely to focus on the Muslims since their western border was secure.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

I mean, Byzantium still has to deal with its own succession issues, doesn't it?

Yabbut they are spared Bulgar invasions. And the succession issue was in OTL anyway.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Leo V would likely use the power vacuum to become Emperor. Plus Bulgaria was already in a precarious position by Pliska, so without Krum to keep it together, it's very much likely that the Balkans would just fall into anarchy once more & Bulgaria with it. Future Emperors would either have a much easier time conquering and subjugating the Balkans, or would ignore it completely to focus on the Muslims since their western border was secure.

This seems like a very interesting POD for a timeline.

 

[TheLionOfJudah]

This seems like a very interesting POD for a timeline.

Indeed it is. Early 9th Century is filled with ripe PODs for all parts of the globe.

 

[fraa Jad]

So really the PoD is only that Krum is KIA at Pliska. Well, actually, not at Pliska, but during the battle at Varbica Pass.

The knock-on is that Krum's 811-814 campaign doesn't happen, as the Bulgars will be held up for a while by the succession crisis. That's good for Byzantium.

Well by the surviving accounts the battle of Varbica pass was a perfectly executed ambush, but of course those are questionable; I thought it would be more realistic if Krum died at Pliska itself? EDIT: I doubt it, it seems to me that he saw that Nikephoros underestimated the mobility of the Bulgarian army, but for the sake of the POD.